Below is a letter that Chuck Phelps has on his website now. He is basically attempting to take credit for the conviction that he fought very hard not to help happen in the first place. The quoted portions are my notes. His entitlement and diversions is amazing to me. No humbleness is shown. Its sad.
A Verdict Reached – Ernie Willis Guilty
The trail of Ernie Willis took place in Concord, NH, from May 23 to 28, 2011. After a week of hearing witnesses, a jury found Ernie Willis Guilt on all counts placed before them. There are those who may be curious about my reactions.
I am relieved. Tina Anderson had a right to seek justice, and she is no doubt thankful that Ernie Willis has been convicted. Ernie Willis broke the law. No one has ever denied this. When Tina made allegations concerning Ernie Willis in 1997, her mother and I reported the matter as a crime to the Concord police department (a fact now affirmed under oath by me, her mother, and the Concord police investigator assigned to the case). Unfortunately, the Concord police were not diligent to follow-up on the reports given to them. Further, it was affirmed under oath by me and a Concord police officer that I called the New Hampshire Division of Youth and Family Services and reported Tina’s situation as was required by the law. Sadly, this report did not bring the immediate follow-up that is expected norm today.
If you note from the trial?
Chuck Phelps and Christine Leaf both made it clear that Tina made no ‘allegations’ of rape to them – the purpose of the trial. They both repeatedly reminded everyone she never said she was ‘raped’. It was a ‘convert dating relationship’, and Phelps even noted on camera that he didn’t consider it rape. By calling this a ‘covert dating relationship’ does infer that he felt it was ‘consensual’, and not a crime at least in his eyes.
What Chuck Phelps is leaving out is they do not have record of him contacting the police, but do have a record of him contacting New Hampshire's child services. The police officer he mentions above contacted him – after children’s services reported to the officer, and Phelps never returned the calls. Chuck Phelps also needs to realize that he had a ethic and moral obligation – besides his duty lawfully – to follow up if he KNEW for sure Ernie Willis broke the law – as he claims no one denied. He needs to apologize for his lack of ‘diligent follow-up’ as well, that should have been expected to be ‘norm’ now and at the time.
At my recommendation Mrs. Leaf took Tina to see a licensed medical professional who examined her in private and never called the police (a fact also established by the medical professional’s testimony in court).
The facts posted on this website since the April 8th 20/20 program aired have now been stated under oath. On Tuesday, May 24, 2011, the court determined that I could share what had previously been confidential information which I received from Mr. Willis many years ago. The release of this information no doubt played a very important part in bringing these matters to justice.
The experiment basically showing people’s obedience to authority figures even when they realize something is wrong. They were asked to do things that went against their personal conscience, and they wanted to measure the individual’s willingness to obey the authority figure. They were asked to do things for the ‘overall good’ even at the expense of others.
This experiment has been done more than once, and the results did surprise me. On average 65% of participates did finish the experiment even with knowing they were harming another person. If you read anything about these types of experiments the ‘harmed’ person was an actor. The people doing the ‘harm’ didn’t know this until they experiment was complete.
I think most of us would predict that society, as a whole wouldn’t go as far as these people did. I think most of us if we were not familiar with these experiments would think if you can’t stop yourself YOU must be some type of monster! I will admit before I knew about this experiment, and as I watched the videos online? I thought the same thing as most of us would – no way would I do that! If you look at the percentage what does show about human behavior? I think it reveals things about us as humans that we may not have realized.
Here is a video series on the Milgram Experiments.
It reminds me of peer pressure in a way. It shows there are situational forces that have a much greater impact on our behavior than most people recognize. It also shows me that people will do evil things if the personal responsibility is taken away. I will say not everyone took pleasure in the act, but continued doing it anyway, I found that to be oddly comforting, and sad at the same time.
I realize some would say there are good people, and there are BAD people! Those individuals that went all the way, and finished the experiment all the way to the end? THEY ARE bad! I want to agree with that statement really badly myself!
I remember doing stupid things in my life where I didn’t open my mouth when I KNEW I should have! I questioned if I was missing something, and everyone else saw it but me. Come to find out I was right, and if I had been brave enough? It would have saved a lot of grief. I guess that makes me that bad person doesn’t it? Sigh!
I believe I remember reading the original experiment was trying to learn WHY people in Germany would go along with all the awful, evil things that were happening there during World War II. How most of them would say, “I was just following orders!” It seems to be a bit more than that.
People today still believe that every German who fought for the Nazis was a demon incarnate, and that no decent person would have done what our troops ultimately did at Abu Ghraib. Meanwhile, systemic abuses of power continue because people refuse to see the value of basic safeguards. This was one lesson about human nature that went largely unlearned.
Pretending that humanity is comprised of angels and demons is just another form of denial that does nothing to protect us from the next holocaust.
In 1965, Milgram wrote, "With numbing regularity good people were seen to knuckle under the demands of authority and perform actions that were callous and severe. Men who are in everyday life responsible and decent were seduced by the trappings of authority, by the control of their perceptions, and by the uncritical acceptance of the experimenter's definition of the situation, into performing harsh acts."
In 1974, Milgram more generously noted, "It is not so much the kind of person a man is as the kind of situation in which he finds himself that determines how he will act."
If you look at the church, and see how people willingly allow themselves to be railroaded by doctrine? How they feel certain leaders have more biblical knowledge, and instead of questioning things just feel it must be written in stone?
We not go around zapping people with electric shocks when they get the wrong answer, but we are capable of doing other things aren’t we? Under Much Grace as a lecture that she did at the Seneca Falls 2 Evangelical Women's Rights Convention, and she also included a second lecture on this very theme. YES that is what got me thinking! I think Cindy’s presentation helps us think along these lines, and how people seem to willingly just ‘accept’ some things the church says … and we truly shouldn’t.
I have been reading opinions about the latest Eminem song, called, "Love The Way You Lie". (Video Link highlighted)
Some people say they 'get' the song, and others feel it glamorizes domestic violence. I found a short interview with Rihanna, and the part that bothered me is her almost childlike response, "I wanted to be part of a HIT!"
I tried for a number of weeks to figure out WHERE the attraction was for this song, and how it is strange that none of them (Characters in the video) truly try to explain the message behind it. Rihanna got the snot kicked out of her, and I can't believe that she would truly wish to 'glamorize' what happened to her.
WELL below is my STAB at a theory!
Lets look at the chorus of the song:
Just gonna stand there and watch me burn
But that's alright because I like the way it hurts
Just gonna stand there and hear me cry
But that's alright because I love the way you lie
I love the way you lie
This is the first part I think some are truly bothered by. WHY would she said such a thing? I like the way it hurts? I like the way you lie? Huh?
To me personally? It sounds like opinions towards victims of domestic violence from society. She must like it or why wouldn't she leave? She must have done something to trigger him like that! She isn't innocent after all.
I'm talking about how those justifications we read about after she got beat up, and had to listen to people justifying Chris Brown actions towards her. She PUSHED him to beat her.... right? Abusers for the most part are out for themselves, and in their sick viewpoints towards the relationship? Watching her cry or burn isn't something that moves them in reality.
For the chorus she is playing the part that society had labeled her with. I'm not talking ALL of us, but the ones that stood up for Chris Brown in a fashion that justified what he did to her. How she pushed his buttons, and she loves the way he lies. Why else would she stay in a relationship with him? RIGHT?!
maybe he was defending himself against her
WHY YALL ON RIHANNA SIDE HE HIT HER FOR A REASON SHE MIGHT HAVE DID SUMTHIN TO **** HIM OFF OR PUSH HIM TO HIS LIMIT
im guessing that rhianna hit him first and if she did, then she got what she deserved.
We have heard cruel attitudes towards victims, and maybe Rihanna is playing the part they asked her to in the chorus. It was the opinion of society towards her, and it shows to THEM at least she has twisted thoughts towards the relationship as well.
Its with a heavy heart, and deep sadness that I wanted to inform everyone of the passing of Danni Moss. She had been struggling her illness (recurring cancer) for sometime, and finally passed away yesterday.
I had been out of commission for a host of reasons recently, but felt drawn to post of the loss of Danni.
Because it Matters was her blog, and her writing style and viewpoints will be greatly missed. The link I supplied is part of her story of attempting to grasp how to deal with domestic violence within the church, and how the church in her circumstance - along with many others - just didn't know what to do about it.
I was surprised to find that my pastors would not stand against the abuse in my marriage, even when they knew I was telling the truth about it. The first time I left Gary, my pastors (SBC church) were shocked at my accusation of abuse. They did not believe me.
I later learned that apparently a huge percentage of women who leave their husbands claim abuse as the reason. Abuse is a nice hot-button word that, at one time perhaps, engendered automatic horror and sympathy. Now (and perhaps always, I don’t know) there is so much concern that accusations might be false pastors “err on the side of caution” and are more likely to disbelieve an accusation of abuse than to take it seriously.
The church provided counseling from an elder who was also a professional certified counselor. In our first session, which was when I told Gary I was leaving him (he didn’t know before then because I was afraid of him) the counselor got to see his anger.
However, Gary’s facade never completely cracked in public in 20 years of marriage. Only one time did he ever reveal his rage to someone outside his own family (wife and children) and that was to his sister. But to her it was a one-off anomaly. For us it was a way of life. When I tried to tell counselors about his anger they discounted it, thinking I meant “anger” in the way we all sometimes get angry. By anger I meant uncontrolled rage. But if I used the word “rage” with counselors they just heard “anger” and discounted it.
Danni speaks of the roadblocks that are placed in front of the victim of domestic violence. She speaks on how they err on the side of caution, and when you speak of the uncontrolled rage how they discount it.
Properly trained counselors do know how to go about seeking truth compared to falsehood. I do believe that since the church has a motive of keeping marriages together at all costs they ignore parts of that training. I have to wonder at times if some of them get trained in that area at all.
I have seen and read numerous calls for help, and how people speak of this uncontrolled rage - and it was also ignored and discounted. Most of the time people are told to concentrate on their sin, and then try to find that sin to focus on to get the point across.
So many times I have seen online people being told they have to do this because their spouse isn't there to give the other side to the story, and yet in Danni's case the same treatment was given when that other side was clear to everyone. He was there and showed his true colors up close and personal.
This counselor knew these things were happening in our home; I told him everything. He said he believed me. In hindsight though, as a licensed counselor, he either did not believe me or he deliberately chose to violate the law because he did not report it to the authorities. I didn’t know then that he was legally required to report abuse if he was told about it.
But his attitude was the same as I found from every other Christian counselor (except the one who did report my husband). Saving the marriage was their only consideration. This first church counselor told me that I had no grounds for a divorce, period. I started proceedings toward divorce because, while he was crying on everyone’s shoulders in public, in private Gary was threatening to charge me with child abuse, to take the children and run out of state, to cut me off financially, etc. I consulted with several professionals and they told me my only protection was to get a divorce.
When the church places 'grounds for divorce' ahead of personal safety I have to wonder if they have totally lost their prospective that Jesus would have them see. When legally you are told that the only way you can protect yourself and your child/children is divorce to escape domestic violence why does the church see 'saving the marriage' as their only consideration.
Laws are different all over the place, and yes at times your only protection is filing. You are placed between a rock and a hard place when you throw your faith into this reality. The church will claim you don't have forgiveness in your heart, and your hard heart is the real issue. The true reason for these actions are completely ignored, because they see no biblical reason for the divorce.
When you are told that God stands for truth, mercy, grace, love, etc. ? When you are told how and why Jesus died on the cross for us? It boggles the mind of everyone 'outside the church' and YES some of us 'inside' that people use legalism instead of plain common sense. You don't tell people to stay in harms way when they ask for help, and yet this is what is encouraged.
The church doesn't help the family, nor the abuser in this instance. You have to wonder WHY they feel justified?!
However, I told the counselor and my pastors that I would stop the divorce if Gary gave any indication of repentance. The pastors and counselor promised they would keep that qualification a secret. After winning me back with an amazing repentance performance (that I didn’t realize until years later was all private – he never acknowedged publically that he had done anything wrong) Gary slipped and told me one of the pastors had told him I would drop the divorce if he repented. Still later, he denied it. But how would he have even come up with such a statement in the first place if the pastor hadn’t told him?
In this first separation, the church denied the reality of the abuse in my home, failed to report the abuse allegations to the authorities, and betrayed my confidence to Gary, enabling him to manipulate me back into the marriage with their support and blessing.
This is another factor I see all to often. The 'means to the end' to keep that family together.
They don't wish to deal with the sin directly, but manipulate factors to accomplish their goal. Is it any wonder why the divorce rates are the same as the world's? The church will blame the parties within the marriage, and yet ignore their own portion of it.
Its like a weed in your yard. You can see the weed, and pull out the surface along the grass line. As you know unless you find the root to remove - the weed will grow back. I hear all to often about the parties 'lack of faith', or 'belief in truth'. Why they can't acknowledge their 'means to the end' shows just that is beyond me!
The second time I separated from Gary the pastors of my church (the same church) did believe me. I had started telling them things were slipping back into old patterns within a couple years of our previous separation. By “old patterns” I was talking about the physical violence. It wasn’t until about the time I left him for the final time that I acknowledged the verbal abuse was just as serious a problem.
Four years after our first separation, I took our oldest son, J, to a Christian counselor recommended by a pastor friend (who later became our pastor). My goal was for us to learn how not to push Gary’s buttons and cause his anger and violence – I still didn’t understand that Gary was responsible for his own anger and rage choices.
When I told the counselor what was happening, culminating in Gary punching J in the stomach in front of neighbor children when I was away from home, she told me she would talk to J to see what he said, but if he said the same thing I had, she was required by law to report Gary to the authorities. And she did.
Even though my pastors believed me the second time, I was clearly told they would do nothing. Well, to be specific, the senior pastor called me into his office for a meeting. He told me that he believed it could be that I had no choice but to get a divorce (which I was not pursuing at that time) if Gary did not repent of his abuse. But at the same time he told me not to tell anyone he had said so – which I correctly interpreted to mean he wasn’t going to say so in public or make any move to stand up for us.
Keeping up appearances, and making a half hearted attempt to deal with reality is yet another roadblock.
Dealing with abuse of any kind is ugly, and there are never any good answers.
The church will acknowledge the the spouse can't change the other spouse, but the follow up in how to deal with that reality is sorely lacking. Pray for a miracle, and just do your part is normally the pat answer. You are then set a drift to do this on your own. Some things are just to dirty to deal with for the church, and they wonder WHY people feel betrayed?!
They guilt trip the party that is clearly asking for help, and yet never confront and deal with the abusive party. You are told to come and ask for help when you need it, and yet you are handed basically nothing. Acknowledgment, Validation, and even someone saying 'I don't know how to help you' would go a long way, and yet that would go against the appearance they need to give. You are asked to walk on eggshells around this person, and somewhat told they 'know its wrong' without truly STATING it like they need to.
Gary did not want us to have anything to do with the counselor who reported him to the authorities, telling me our former counselor discredited her (I never heard it directly from the source but I believed him at the time). I didn’t trust the counselor from our church that we had previously, based on what had come out of that experience.
A close friend and mentor offered to provide counseling. She was not a Baptist (which was a positive factor to me by that time) and I had seen God use her, so I trusted her. She was not a professional counselor but had majored in counseling in some capacity in school.
However, she did not believe I should have separated from Gary. In her theology that was never acceptable since it was “putting asunder” what God had joined. This was lack of godly submission on my part. In our 4-5 sessions she focused on me during all but one. She never believed me about the abuse or violence. And after just a few sessions she told me “God said” it was time for us to get back together.
Nothing had been addressed. Gary never had to acknowledge what he had done and he definitely came out of that separation believing he had been vindicated. My heart shattered in a million pieces. But I obeyed her because that’s what I’d always been taught to do.
Enabling is yet another tool in the chest to keep the marriage together at all costs.
The authorities and church will acknowledge that abuse is happening, and yet you don't 'put asunder' what God has joined. Don't deal with the sin, and ask the victims to 'submit more'. When a broken person doesn't have to admit their actions? When nothing is dealt with? Where is the incentive for the sinful behaviors to stop? Where is his incentive to become the man that God would wish him to be? Where is the support the whole family needs during this trial that the church claims THEY will be there for?
Due to the fact Danni 'obeyed' as she had been taught? To the church it shows the 'lie' they assumed was there. It wasn't that bad. No one sees how victims get nailed if they leave (sin), or if they stay when told they must (SEE it wasn't that bad afterall!).
Gary convinced the social worker that I had taught J to be rebellious. He convinced the social worker and everyone else who would listen that J was so violent and rebellious that he (Gary) was only defending himself and standing up for his honor when he hit his son on a very regular basis. No one would listen to me when I tried to tell them J was responding back to his father in exactly the same tone of voice, profanity, and attitude that his father used toward him. The people in Gary’s required anger management course told him if their son back-talked them they’d hit him, too.
For the remainder of our marriage, Gary believed it was his right to hit back “in self defense, to stand up for himself as a man”, physically or verbally, every time he could egg one of the boys into a fight. And he was usually the one doing the “egging” – he just didn’t swing first, so he could say he never “started it.”
This incident cemented J’s hardness toward God because the church and the system that was supposed to protect him, blamed him. He knew from then on, his father would always be believed and he would be the “bad guy.” It happened over and over. My health broke down due to the stress at this point.
The church also forgets about the children.
I don't know how many times articles about how children are better off with 'two' parents are placed out there to encourage you not to divorce or separate. They stress the damage you are going to do to the children.
Abusers don't just target their spouses. The abusive behaviors they refuse to acknowledge within the homes, and the pressure to 'keep together' are damaging the children. Children don't even have to be direct targets of the abuse for them to be effected, and yet no one will go there.
When children start to break under the pressure of the abusive environment once again the abuser gets off.
People tend to take the path of less resistance. Its easier to blame the parent and children than it is the abuser directly. Who is more likely to 'bow' to their pressure? The frighten people or the abuser they know will ignore them?
I wanted to believe that this time the reconciliation would be different. I desperately wanted it to be OK. If more submission was the problem then that’s what I wanted to do. But I couldn’t understand why his abuse and violence were always excuseable. Why was his anger always excuseable but no one else was allowed to have any emotions other than delight in his every thought or expression – even the nastiest ones?
After our second separation, we ended up changing churches for reasons unrelated to our marital issues. We went back to a church we had attended the first couple years of our marriage. Through one thing and another the pastors of this church were aware of our marital situation through the intervening years.
It didn’t take long before they began to see problems with Gary themselves. This was surprising to me because no other pastor had ever bothered to pay attention enough to see problems. They proved for themselves that he was a liar, manipulative and controlling; this had nothing to do with our marriage or family issues.
When Gary’s anger, rage and literal expressions of hatred toward me increased while I was sick after chemo I realized it was never going to end. This time I didn’t attempt counseling. I knew what would happen; it had all happened before. I also felt that God was very specifically leading me to get a divorce - an assertion that has gotten me a lot of flack. But I’ve been listening to that voice for a long time; I know what it sounds like. I had also told Gary after the second separation that if he escalated again I would get a divorce. And that’s what I did.
However, when I told my pastors I was getting a divorce I was surprised to find they were not supportive – even though they knew I was telling the truth. But one pastor said, while I might need to get a divorce for the safety of myself and my children, I could never remarry since there was no known sexual adultery. I have no idea whether Gary’s subsequent remarriage would change his opinion about this. The other pastor said I had no grounds for divorce since there was no known sexual adultery – regardless of the abuse going on in our home. The logic which would allow him to kill me but not have sex with someone else escapes me.
You would think people would grasp that this woman needed help if her husband was even this cruel as she struggled with her chemo treatments, and fought to survive.
Instead of support that was clearly needed to escape a dangerous person? She receives speeches about how she can't marry again, and how she doesn't have 'grounds' for divorce biblically. No one stepped up to give her other alternatives, and her and the children were set adrift. The 'world' sees this type of behavior, and is it any wonder WHY they question things?
The church looks like a bunch of fools (rightfully so), and yet makes excuses that the world hates them and reminds themselves that Jesus told them they would. They don't grasp that they are not showing the world the values they claim they represent. When Jesus told his disciples that other people would know that they were His disciples because of their love for one another (John 13:35), He was telling them about the main characteristic of a true Christian. As in Danni's circumstances and many others that love for one another to me isn't present, and what the world is sensing as well. Instead of acknowledging this? Well all we have to do is read more of her story....
I was very hurt by this, even though I understood why they said the things they did and they weren’t ugly or mean about it. What pastors (speaking in general of all the pastors I had) don’t realize is that when they don’t stand up for abuse victims, by default they stand up for the abuser. The victim needs the protection of the church leadership at least standing up to say, “this person is getting a divorce with cause. We know about it, we know the details, and we agree the cause is valid.”
Even if they don’t give details, taking a stand for abuse victims when asked keeps the abuser from poisoning people against the victim — which will happen, guaranteed. It happened with me and really hurt that Gary went around telling people a variety of lies about me and muddied the water. I still do not feel completely comfortable in that church because I know there are people there who see me the way Gary painted me, even without realizing it.
I realize that churches at times don't see this part, and at times like alot of the dynamics they don't wish to see. They to often sprinkle spiritual pixie dust around, and hope it just goes away.
When it doesn't and the marriage fails we see the bolded portion of what she quoted on her facebook page.
I'm a 40-something single mom starting over after 20 years of marriage. I'm loving learning to be myself; life is so interesting and fun! I'm an information sponge and endlessly curious about everything, so school suits me to the core.
I've been in school the past couple years, pursuing a degree in psychology. This was mostly a second choice, since I had basically faced the reality that I was not going to be acceptable in church - and my passion is to bring healing to hurting Christians.
However, over the past year I have gradually come to realize that I don't have to settle for second choice. I have finally found a church home where I can have a place and be fully accepted. I have also found a Bible college whose theology I can agree with where I can train for full-time ministry. So I am trusting for provision to be able to go that direction.
It seems to me at times if you can't go along with the program, and use denial - pretend things are like this - etc. you are treated like the leper in church. It amazes me how the church will step up and out for causes such as abortion, homosexuality, etc because they feel they are called to do so. When it comes to the dynamics that tear apart families apart they remain silent if truly look at what they have to offer.
That is the part that I felt betrayed by the most. When you have tragic circumstances in your life, and you find their formula isn't addressing your safety concerns? The grace Christians claim they give because Jesus called them to isn't present. Some people get mad at God, but its not God that did this. God would not allow people like Danni to feel unacceptable in his eyes - humankind is the one to blame for that. They just use God as their excuse.
Danni I feel Jesus was speaking of you when he said:
"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." (John 15:18-19)
Jesus chose you, and you are now finally out of pain. You will be missed!
So why will pastors not take a stand for the abused within their churches?
One, they don’t want to make a mistake in taking sides. If an abuser denies the allegation of abuse, they are afraid not to believe him (or her). However, from the first separation I begged my pastors to follow the Mt. 18 pattern for church discipline. But they wouldn’t do it and follow through to the final step of withdrawing fellowship. The problem with this is, when pastors will not “take sides” they are taking sides. They are taking the side of evil and leaving the abused abandoned in their abuse. The hurt of this is overwhelming!
Pastors are also afraid of creating division in the church. This is the ostrich approach to the issue, I suppose. Unfortunately, the Bible says that those who sin are to be rebuked publicly so others will see and fear. The silence of the church on the issue of abuse is contributing to its continued growth because abusers are affirmed in their behavior. So by saying nothing pastors are “calling evil good” and enabling evil to continue.
The big one though is that pastors don’t want to be guilty of “putting asunder” what God has put together. They take one statement by God (repeated two or three times in the Bible) out of the context of the whole and elevate it above every other consideration. As I outlined in my article on the theology of an abusive marriage, the Bible has more to say about the issue of abuse. Besides the little bit in that article, there is even more Scripture has to say about marriage and abuse as well. But seminaries and Bible colleges don’t teach the rest of the Word on the subject of marriage.
I suspect when pastors fail to take a stand against abuse in marriages, they are afraid of either making a mistake that would earn them God’s wrath or they are afraid of gaining the disapproval of church members who have the power to ruin their careers.
Until something changes, abuse will abound in Christian marriages. The Bible does have an answer for the issue of abuse and that answer isn’t silence and denial.
I do hope the family decides to keep her blog up for others to read. She did bring healing to hurting Christians - her passion!
I pray that pastors can humble themselves enough to read some of her story and insights. I hope they can take the pain she and her children had to deal with, and learn to change how they approach this subject. Was the heat that she was asked to take justified so the church didn't have to deal with some?
As tears stream down my face I ask for prayers especially for her young daughter that will now have to live with him full time. Danni's family will be in my prayers, and I hope they will find ways of protecting that young child. I pray for Gary as well so that he may find healing for himself, and be the man that God wishes him to be.
For me Danni - one hurting Christian you have touched ....Thank YOU! Your love and passion for God and for the world didn't go unnoticed. I hope your wisdom in your blog is used in the future so that others don't have to deal with the pain of domestic violence within the church as well.
A quote she enjoyed ... "A strong man stands up for himself. A stronger man stands up for everyone else." -- heard on a kids show, of all places. I think that fits her to a tea!
I sit here with tears in my eyes as I read a story from Beauty For Ashes. I'm sure some of you have read of the awful death of the child named Lydia. Prosecutors say that earlier last month Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz of Paradise, Calif., beat their 7-year-old daughter to death with quarter-inch plastic tubing because she mispronounced a word. They say the girl's parents held her down and whipped her for hours causing massive tissue damage that resulted in her death. Lydia's 11 year old sister was placed in the hospital in critical condition. It seems her older sister was a bad influence on her siblings. This couple is looking at life imprisonment.
Beauty for Ashes begins her piece:
Paul and I have just returned home from the funeral of a most precious little girl. Lydia's smile could have lit a room. Now it reflects the glory of God the Savior for all eternity.
Yes they knew the family in question, because they had once attended their church but it seems left over doctrinal issues it seems. This women had such grace that she showed as she spoke of this family. The loss hit her and her family unlike most of us that read about this poor child on the news. Its a bit different listening to how these types of things effect you when you listen to someone close enough to know them.
Waneta Dawn recently has been writing a series about the Love Dare movie FIREPROOF, and materials that we have all been hearing about. Waneta Dawn is the author of 'Behind the Hedge'.
The Product Description for her book reads:
Yearning for a warm and loving marriage, Yvette works hard as a housewife and on their Iowa dairy farm to satisfy her husband, Luke, and tries to motivate him to be a loving and caring husband and father. But hidden behind his charming public facade, Luke is critical and demands more submission. With the help of her friend, Delores, Yvette grapples with the meaning and application of Biblical submission to her husband, changes how she relates to her husband, and endeavors to correct the misbeliefs of their teenaged sons, Greg and Kyle. Luke indoctrinates his wife and children on the meaning of submission and obedience. But one day he goes too far. Will their marriage survive the storm? Will Luke become the warm and loving husband Yvette craves? Will their daughter, Tanya, learn to trust her father? And will their sons become loving and respectful young men?
Waneta Dawn grew up on a dairy farm in Kalona, Iowa, and was raised in the Mennonite faith. She currently lives with her daughter and next door to her mother in Iowa. She has researched domestic violence, particularly dominance through verbal, emotional, psychological, and spiritual abuse for over ten years. For two of those years she used curriculum from Duluth, Minnesota to facilitate the Batterer's Education Program, a men's group, which met one evening a week and operated through the Iowa Department of Corrections. Ms Dawn hopes Behind the Hedge will help heal and strengthen relationships to the glory of God.
If you aren't familiar with the Love Dare here is the trailer for the movie. It was called Fire Proof:
You can actually go and see the trailer of the movie if you wish.
I think most of us realize this movie was all the rage when it came out, and still to this day is mentioned alot within the church circle.
Waneta Dawn touched on an aspect that truly got me thinking about this movie FireProof, and how people tend to tell the wrong party to do the LOVE DARE with their spouse! Here is a quote from Waneta that got me thinking:
Additionally, this movie tells anyone an abused wife goes to for help, that if she would just do the Love Dare and stick with it, no matter how long it takes, her whole problem would go away. Even worse, they may PRESSURE her to do the love dare and stick with it. If she refuses, they are likely to hold her at arms length, shun her, or even drive her out of their church.
I think people need to realize the premise of the Love Dare is to change - in this case - the man's heart towards God and his marriage. In the movie Caleb is selfish, hard hearted, and pretty much lives 'MY way or the HIGHWAY'! They don't truly go into the relationship to much beforehand, but shows at this point how the wife is to the point of not willing to give anymore. She is DONE! Its OVER! They show hints as to why her attitude has changed, and it doesn't show her as this 'perfect angel' either.
The movie hints to the fact she has given her all, and he flat out rejects her in his treatment of the marriage. We hear all the time about people speaking of the modern "ME ME ME" attitude. I suppose people can try to apply this to her character as well, but then they would be missing the point of what the movie was trying to tell them. The entire focus is NOT on the 'two to tango' or how they are both at fault, etc.
It deals with a real life couple issue, and its characters doesn't have to be this WALT Disney World type of relationship. In other words, she doesn't have to act like Snow White or Cinderella in order see the sin.
With the Disney themed movies the church at times would ask Cinderella to do the LOVE DARE on the stepmother. The fantasy character at the beginning of that movie showed how she was rejected in the relationship. How Cinderella are now treated as the evil step child.
If they were real world relationships - as in a man and woman - you could clearly see how the Love Dare would be useful to change the heart of the Stepmother in the Disney Film NOT Cinderella. Cinderella already has her heart in the right place in this fantasy. You can clearly understand WHY she don't trust the step family, and for most of us? We would understand its for good reason.
I doubt to many of us are as innocent and perfect as that character. It seems you need to be at times in order for anyone to truly pay attention though. That's sad! lol its also a different aspect of what I want to write about today!
It just seems strange how we can understand the feelings of rejection and NOT trusting of the step family in the Disney films, but can't relate that to real LIFE! How this is magically different once you marry, and we will give you the magically spiritual pixie dust (instead of tinkerbell's) to use for your 'happily ever after' part. We are humans and NOT Disney characters!
DO YOUR LOVE DARE - FIREPROOF YOUR MARRIAGE
Caleb's heart is cold and closed in the movie. He will tell you there is no doubt in his mind he is the victim of this WIFE that won't cooperate. He doesn't give in the marriage, but expects to take!
To God that man needs a heart change! He is NOT living scripture as God instructs in marriage. Caleb was lucky enough to have a father and coworker to get him to drop his victim status for a moment, and try the love dare. His selfish heart shows in his frustration when she doesn't respond the way he wants her to.
He throws his hat in the ring, and gives and gives. He puts her first - so he thinks. She doesn't respond. Her heart is closed due to the past experiences with him. From what I have seen in the church that is the part people don't get. They concentrate on wanting that 'happily ever after' from the Disney films, and go to her and say "HE IS TRYING! How about giving a little back!"
Their focus is on the fantasy part, and not the real world. If you want a true heart change - its NOT dependent on that! Heck it shouldn't even be a factor at ALL at first!
You can't force this process, and yet you see the encouragement to do so WAY to often! You hear abusive people state, "I want to change, but you need to stay and help me!" If they don't say that - the attitude is there. People have a real issue with letting the heart change happen with consequences of rejection, and encouraging them to work HARDER like Caleb did in the movie.
Caleb was allowed to get past his 'anger and resentment' that she wasn't going along with his program...and HELP to work the process! That early attitude clearly showed his attitude of the past was still present. The heart change hasn't happened yet. It wasn't until he was completely broken, and grasped the heart change was for God first did things start to turn around. Strange how the wife at that point actually started to feel it as well.
The concentration wasn't on her to HELP, and give him a chance! The concentration was allowing him to be broken, feel broken, and for God to take the wheel at that point. To live as God would wish him to even if she NEVER responded. Keep treating her as God would ask you to do, because that is what God would want.
We can say WELL the abused person should do that also! Personally? I think his rejection helped in the heart change, and its very much what was needed in this case. Her giving in to soon? That would NOT be to his benefit, and he wouldn't have clearly grasped the concept due to his selfish nature. She had a heart change on her own, and that was AFTER his complete turn around that God wanted for him.
"BENEFIT of the DOUBT" isn't a good choice with this type of attitude. It enables them to NOT work for what God would wish them to. I mean where would the incentive to truly change be? He has it made! I will try a little, and then people will pressure her to DO HER PART! That 'I get to take' attitude doesn't change then does it? No incentive for complete transformation like you saw in the movie.
In most cases STRONG forces of selfishness don't change unless they feel forced to. They want the easy road - they have always had - realizing it will be a different version. You hand it to them, but do they truly get it? TRULY grasp the heart change? No.
ALLOW THE CHANGE OF HEART - Show the FIRE PROOF!
I read and hear all the time people asking spouses to concentrate on the GOOD qualities of their spouse to help deal with the pain of abuse. Why? I guess to them it will keep them in the right mindset. It will be easier to receive when their spouse gets around to actually giving. Okay then. To me they are asking you to manipulate yourself into thinking that what isn't there - is clearly there if you just look at it different! WHY they are surprised it doesn't work? Denial I suppose.
Just like all of us we can look and maybe state some GOOD qualities about anyone. That isn't going to change their heart is it? That WON'T bring about the heart change that God would wish all of us to have! He wants us to change our heart no matter what! Do it despite the barriers and obstacles. THAT shows the real heart change, and the pressure to 'pat them on the back' from the one they hurt to early?
We aren't stepping out of the way, and allowing God to do his work!
God wanted to change Caleb completely, and in most cases within the church? We are all guilty of throwing barriers in the way due to our own fears in order to help that along.
Be NICE!
Look he is TRYING!
Make sure you MARK that good behavior in your book so you don't forget!
He attempted so you need to respond!
Did you see ANY of those statements in the movie towards her? During most of it you didn't. Did you see people rushing to shame her for NOT responding properly? Caleb tried, but the rest of the characters didn't go there. They allowed the process to happen, but the church in their fear of the "D" word just can't keep their fingers out of it like that.
Can you imagine what Caleb's response would have been if they HAD said some of the things I had mentioned to her? Talk about making him feel justified! Would that have helped him? Hardly!
THE DISNEY WORLD CHALLENGE OF LOVE DARE
What is sad about the love dare movie to me is that there are alot of people in this world that will REFUSE to go as far as Caleb did. Instead of trying to work with that person - people instead tell the other spouse to NOT lose faith in them instead of stepping up themselves!
Its easier to pressure the abused spouse than it is to keep on top of the frustrated, angry abuser! Personally?
Its very wimpy of them as well!
They are MORE than willing to tell the abused spouse to 'work it' according to their definition, but frankly the commanders aren't willing to 'work it' according to God's!
WHO has the lack of faith?
If you look again at the Disney films it would be quite clear to everyone that changing the step families heart will be the challenge. Its quite clear they are the ones that need the change. It would be God's vision for them don't you think?
When the step parent won't go as far as Caleb did in Fire Proof movie the church goes to Cinderella to tell her to NOT to LOSE faith! YOU work the love dare on them! Its YOUR job! FORGIVE them good enough so you forget about those life lessons living with them, and do it anyway! We are tired of working with the step parent in other words. Someone has to do something, and it won't be the step parent so it has to be YOU!
They would tell Cinderella to give, because then they don't have to! They gave up on the step family, but tell Cinderella that SHE can't!
You hear all the time people blaming divorces on humans refusing to live life with God's will in mind! Its strange how they can't see things from the other direction!
They are good at quoting scripture, but living it? Nope.
When the going gets tough - tell Cinderella to get with the program! Step mother is WAY to hard for us to deal with! She needs to do it! SHE gets to deal with the heart change - we are OUT OF HERE!
To me it seems the Fire Proof movie, and the Love Dare books are more for the party that HURTS others, and those that are willing to keep their feet to the fire.
Much to often do I see people getting lazy, and not willing to help them with the challenge. They want the victim to do their job so they don't have to.
That's not what happened in the movie.
Cinderella might have gave and gave and gave before this wonderful BOOK! It doesn't matter! Do the book Cinderella! DO THE BOOK!
Chris Brown's reaction towards the beginning of the interview is pretty typical. In most cases abusers will NOT admit when things happened before, but when they get caught like he did? THAT was the first time! The relationship was pretty normal beforehand.
I realize people will RUSH to say the incidents that are mentioned were never proven. If it never happened would you react like he did? "I don't remember that happening." Most people will say, "THAT NEVER HAPPENED!"
The lawyer stated that the probation people took those incidents from different reports, and placed it in the present report. THAT doesn't mean it never happened! OH AND they never spoke to either of the parties about this.
Where did it come from then? Something was called to their attention, and if neither party told the probation department about it? What it fell out of the air? There seems to be a paper trail they don't want to talk about.
There doesn't have to be an arrest, etc for a paper trail to be there.
How? Think of a little old lady in your neighborhood calling the police because she thinks there is a stranger outside lurking! If something happens down the road that lady's report will surface. Paper trail!
That is why people mention to others to remember to call the police, and have them write things up even if nothing comes of it. That paper trail can come in handy later if it is needed to prove a pattern.
Remember with abusers? It never happened before! Its her word against MINE! No proof - no case! The paper trail would place that into question. You will see a pattern start to develop.
Police do place personal notes in there as well. The 'automatic' guilt isn't automatic, but at least you have a starting point. At times patterns of behavior are very useful if you need to point out a dangerous person.
Granted on this interview I can understand WHY he doesn't wish to go there, but people with any level of common sense? It should tell you things happened prior, and this incident didn't just FALL out of the sky.
I think I would remember taking out windshields wouldn't you?
At this point he has nothing to gain by admitting it. His reputation has already taken a HUGE hit, but it would follow the pattern of abuse wouldn't it?
WE HAD A HEALTHY, NORMAL RELATIONSHIP BEFORE THIS HAPPENED!
Notice how Chris spoke, his eye contact, body language, etc. I'm SURE the man is somewhat nervous, but he should be more comfortable than most in front of the cameras. He should be prepared for this interview. He should have had his script down pat beforehand! You can't tell me he didn't have a CLUE what would be asked!
As they say in sports? HE CHOKED!
He can't look people in the eyes. He can't speak. According to him they had this normal, healthy relationship. This one time? WELL out of the blue it just plain got out of control!
When abusers are in control they see the relationship as awesome! For them? Why would they see it any other way? When the POWER OVER aspect is present that is fuel, and they feed off it. It is normal to them, and to them also? A very GOOD relationship at that! I truly don't think they see the unhealthy aspect of it. They just can't own it, and why should they? Where is the incentive to? Being equal doesn't give them control. To them it makes them 'less than'. That can make a very unhealthy environment for both. If they can control it, and they get the fuel they feel they need? Why change it!
Don't get me wrong you can have GOOD aspects to these relationships. They are both so unhealthy they can't truly see the unhealthy parts.
MOM SAYS I'M OKAY!
Most of us realize that Chris Brown spoke of the domestic violence that happened in his childhood. His mother will admit these things happened as well.
The part she will NOT admit to? It had an impact on him. There is no way it could have NO impact at all.
Think of the story that is told about the two brothers. They had an abusive father, and were abused themselves. When they grew up one son was abusive towards his family, and other was the complete opposite of that. When they were asked WHY they treated their families as they did? What was their answer? They both answered the same. BECAUSE OF DAD!
Don't think if it was MOM that abused it would be any different! Abuse impacts children's lifes.
Chris Brown's mother claims her experiences, and what he dealt with in life didn't impact his life. It is NOT the case for her son. What happened was mind boggling to her. "He never fought in school?" First it was NO, but then it was SCUFFLES! Chris Brown then states it was NEVER against a female!
We see signs were there, and mom isn't helping here!
What did she say to him afterwards? I'm there for you, but when you are wrong I will let you know you are?
She said she will not judge her son, and will not judge anyone. That's all find and great, but she also isn't accepting the reality of things either. The lawyer admits some people never do, and then quickly diverts the conversation elsewhere.
The story got blown out of proportion, and falsehoods existed in those stories. We would show them HOW they were false and people would report them anyway. Breaking of the glass was vandalism not domestic violence! his lawyer commented in order to divert things ....
Larry King quickly stated, "But domestic violence DID happen!" "That's why he wanted to plead guilty right away, an apologize right away!" If you read the dynamics of the abuser? Its not as short, sweet and lovely as that!
I WANTED TO DO THE RIGHT THING!
Chris Brown states he wasn't going to go the easy way out like other celebrities, and take that slap on the wrist. He was willing to take the brunt of the punishment to show to the world HE won't allow himself to get away with anything.
He mentions that he had already spoken to Rhianna, and she accepted his apology. He wanted to show his fans he was sorry, and took responsibility.
NOT the ones that were MAD at him, but the ones that were behind him and would accept his apology.
What is wrong with that statement?
The fans that were outraged at being lied to don't count? The ones that felt betrayed aren't an issue? Is that truly stepping up?
I think we all realize that SOME will hold on to this like a death grip, but why take the easy way out and only apologize to ones that you KNOW will accept it? Why not attempt to go there with some of the others? You will NEVER get all of them that's reality, but why write them all off?
You could feel his contempt for them, and if he was sincere? That contempt wouldn't be there. That is a typical abusive trait. If you don't accept my apology than to heck with you!
When you look at the average couple that deals with this? The family members that have a hard time accepting their sorrow, etc are met with contempt from the abuser as well.
THEY are the ones that will help her break up their relationship.
THEY are the ones that are talking her into NOT forgiving ME!
THEY are the ENEMIES!
If a couple gets back together again? The abuser will isolate her away from them as well. THEY are a threat to the abuser! If the victim wishes to contact them? She is wrong and doesn't love and accept him the way she should. She will pay for that contact. Where is that sincerity now?
I'm NOT talking about people that LOVE to hate!
I'm talking about the people that question his sincerity. The ones that can see the lack of sincerity by his actions.
Chris Brown isn't truly willing to STEP up and take his lumps! Its easier for the him to cast them off, and not win their trust back.
In the case of an average abuser? If he can keep her away from them (support system) it makes it easier for him to keep control of her.
That resistance is a threat, and he DOES care about the threat he sees in them. He isn't willing to prove them wrong he wants them OUT of the picture, because he shouldn't have to. He said he was sorry, and did his speech...deal with it!
She knows what he is capable of, and isn't always capable of going against his will. He claims he has changed, but refuses to humble himself to others over what has happened. Is that truly change or another form of a snow job?
It never happened before?! RIGHHHHHHHHHT!
If Chris Brown was sincere in what he said he will care about the "FANS" that left, and he will come to his senses and STOP hating on THEM! If he can win them over with his sincere nature, and accept those that can't accept him due to the circumstances? Hmmmm. We might be looking at the start of a change. This 'my way or the highway' junk shows the opposite of that. Sorry Chris! NOT buying it!
6: 9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11 Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. -Paul the Apostle, First Letter to the Corinthians
He spoke of how we have heard this scripture stated many times, and how you have heard if you don’t repent of those sins you will not inherit your place in Heaven. What he does say that makes a lot of sense to me is that the church at isn’t to welcoming to those on that rocky road to repentance. Once you are received within that Christian bubble you are no longer moving from one type of person to another, but you are already THERE in a lot of cases it seems to me!
This may shed some light on the situation in I Corinthians chapter 5, where Paul says the Corinthians are “proud of” their acceptance of a man living in a Jerry Springer-esque relationship with his step-mother. Acceptance of the sinner may have been the Corinthian’s strong suit if chapter 6 is any evidence, and their lack of discernment and leadership may have let them to sometimes tolerate too easily- even gladly- what they should have sometimes excluded as incompatible with belonging to Christ. In fact, a number of passages in these letters leave the impression that the Corinthians’ acceptance of real sinners and their patience in dealing with real sin may have gone off track without unified, mature leadership.
What I want you to see, however, is that their acceptance of sinful, repenting, in-the-process-of-changing new believers was a legitimate and importance application of the Gospel. We don’t just arrive at the destination; we travel the road and the road may be less than a straight line. The Christian community into which the Corinthians were all baptized as converts was, at any one moment, a community of persons moving from one kind of person to another; a community of persons acquiring in real time the inheritance and realities given them in their union with Christ in baptism and faith.
Our only other choice is to assume that the person who was “once” on the list in chapter 6 was excluded from the community until they became the new “you” of the same verses. There are Christians and communities that strive to be this very thing: communities where all transformation is instantaneous and the stated rules render the process of repentance and personal transformation unspeakable…unless it is finished. This, by the way, is the genius of Paul’s “sin lists,” which always counterbalance the “big” sins with what we would judge as more mundane sins, by human comparison. Of course you must exclude a persistent sexual sinner, but “greedy” people? We can work on that as we go along. No need to make a big deal about that sort of thing.
I’m not suggesting that Paul or any New Testament writer was advocating that anyone in leadership would be in the process of committing scandalous sin. The pastoral letters are clear on such matters. I am suggesting, with good evidence I think, that the Corinthian fellowship contained persons who entered into the Christian journey as they repented from real sins, and that such repentance was ongoing and, I’m certain, imperfect. That the church is to be a “hospital for sinners” and not a ward of healthy people telling stories of their former illnesses is a challenging calling.
Now I have more than a Bible study in mind this morning, and I want to get to the point. I think there are sins we virtually don’t talk about at all simply because we don’t want people in the process of repenting of those sins around us or our families, and so we fail to see that the church as community is, in many ways, much more like the moralistic, judgmental secular world than like the movement that grows from Jesus and his world-altering Gospel.
He went on and spoke about the sin of domestic violence, emotional abuse within the secular and faith communities. He will admit it’s rampant within both, and he is NOT the type that tells you to go home and SUBMIT to your husband!
He mentioned that he has read – as we all have – that abusive people will never change. He didn't agree with that statement. I personally have never believed that either, but I can understand why people do at times. What I think he has a good point about is there is no place in the church for a repenting abuser.
No fellowship of mere humans can create the community where everyone can repent openly. It’s just not possible. Some sins and their consequences are too controversial and dangerous, even in the process of sincere repentance. Most churches are too imperfect to love every sinner as they should be loved. No church can turn an eye to realities of risk and recurrence
That could be WHY they deny the existence of domestic violence within the church to begin with! Their instant transformation can’t be a reality if the risk of recurrence is there! I do believe that abusers will have recurrences within their path of healing and repentance. Heck the victims will have recurrences of the codependency at times – among other issues. Its not something you can just shake off one day, and be clean as a whistle the next!
What it will take is a lot of effort, education, love, counsel and acceptance. We need these things will BE THERE if people want them bad enough…and are willing to work for towards repentance. That God wants this for you, and he will be there to help you on this path. The church must be a safe haven to speak about this, and are willing to be a support system, accountability partner, and deal with reality…and not FLUFF! It’s going to take more than the words, “Leave it at the CROSS”. Yes, the church HAS to go there! It will be ugly, messy, and hard to deal with at times.
You’d probably be more surprised to learn that the woman next to you at the gym is there because her husband verbally abuses her about her weight. Or what your best friend’s husband is doing on that work computer. Or who is on the sex offender’s registry because as a 22 year old public school coach they had consensual sex with a 17 year old student. Or who is addicted to prescription medications. Or who punched their 15 year old son in the jaw. Or who is paying the mortgage having sex with strangers off of Craig’s list. Or who is a three time convicted shoplifter. Or who was arrested for a DUI last month. Or who smokes pot every day.
Yes, most of us don’t want to think about it, because these are messy, life dominating sins, scattering trails of wreckage behind them that no one wants to become involved with. But we preach the Gospel to them when we preach it to anyone.
We have a Word to hear, an aisle to walk, water to be washed in and a table to come to, but do we have a people gathered around that Gospel who will strive to make a community of repentance possible?
I think the author of this article brings up some good points. You don't hear to much about those sins, and the struggle to get past them to often. You hear the testimonies once they have overcame their struggles, but not to much concentration on the path of those struggles.
I remember years ago I was struggling with my marriage, and I knew something was wrong. I just couldn't place my finger on the cause, and as 'worldly' as it sounds I needed a label so I knew what I was dealing with. Heck I concentrated on ME for years! I know this sounds silly, but I played Melanie Wilkes of Gone with the Wind! I tried to be gentle, loving, positive, encouraging! I tried to do ALL for everyone, and be happy about it. I refused to see the negative and tried to be as empathic towards everything. YES the true me was lost along the way playing this role, but if that made my marriage successful - the kids happy...WELL I was willing to do this! I guess you could say that was my visual for the Proverb 31 woman! If I did all these things my family would appreciate me, and I would finally could be seen with worth as mentioned in Proverbs 31. The abuse would stop, and I prayed that God changed both of us.
I knew alot of the uglies issues of my life were not things you could bring up in polite christian conversation. I knew the answers I would get, and I was trying those! It wasn't working, because things were getting worse instead of better. One day I came across an article called, The Silence Killer of Christian Marriages. You would think, "WOW she got her label!" I did get my label, but for a long time I fought the doubts of my reality, and the ownership of the real issues. It wasn't easy, and I struggled with it alone. YES I'm talking within the human realm! I didn't want to own that I was being abused, and that my husband was abusive! I went down the, 'Its not that bad' path WAY to many times trying to talk myself out of it. It wasn't a badge of honor as other's describe people using it for me. I know its not for others as well, but you would have a hard time finding people that believe that. Its truly sad if you think about it.
You want to know WHY I did it alone? One Lovely Mess is a great example of WHY I didn't wish to go to people within the church! If I would just do it better things would be dandy! I just didn't have the energy to educate people at that point, and I was tired of fighting with people to make them see my world. When I did they questioned my reality, and I have to admit it hurt and was very demeaning. I was struggling enough with what I knew my reality was, and I didn't need to help with that portion. I didn't need more shame, because I had enough at that point. I still wonder why people feel that is the way to go.
I did find help, and I would get angry at those types of responses for a while. God showed me that anger wasn't the way to go. I learned to feel pity for abusers and their enablers that ask you to submit to sin. That divert the conversation about how females use more words, and chances are you are the one doing the abusing by the way! They like abusers divert the issues into other areas instead of dealing with them, and place most of the blame squarely on your shoulders.
Know that I do not write this to excuse any of the sinful behaviors of men. I write this to show that they are not the only sinners in the equation, and that Biblical submission can change the entire picture....
They claim they "GET IT" after they shame the hell out of you, and make you feel worse. Make you question if you should EVER open your mouth again about your pain! You know they don't get it, because mouthing off to an abusive person can get you HURT! They refuse to own that part, and you must have provoked them. YOU MUST HAVE, and they are more than willing to dissect everything to find it for you! LOL! YES they have to dissect it to make them feel their good counsel! You are trying to shake off the denial and doubt, and they are telling you to keep it. I have come to find out that I'm not the one in denial, and people will not talk me into going back there. The truth was hard enough to find, and was hard enough to accept. The truth sent me free!
I pray for those that give that type of counsel. I pray that when they are in pain that they are not treated as they treat others. I pray they have an empathic ear, and council that is encouraging. That will pray for them and with them. That they will be honest with them, and admit at times they don't know the answers all the time! Its okay to PRAY for those! Its okay to point out the uglies on both parties sides, but before you do that? Make sure you know what you are talking about, and WHAT you are dealing with! Diversion doesn't work. It never has.
Is the church a safe place to repent? It could be if they are willing to acknowledge the ugly, and help you deal with the dirty. Until such time? I wonder if it will be safe for most anyone!
Leslie Vernick speaks on this program about 'The Emotionally Destructive Relationship'. I thought it was a very good discussion, and spoke about how we need to realize how we could be an enabler at times. Some people do take offense to that, but as I look back at my own life I was almost molded into that role. Heck I remember early on wondering if maybe I took being LADY LIKE to a harmful level! I mean people were encouraging me to be MORE so, and I felt I did that also...lol (giggles) I even remember trying to be Marsha Brady at one time just trying to fit into the mold of what would make things work! Okay! Maybe not funny, but I have to giggle at myself when I remember that part! The sad part is the extremes I went to, and the lies that were told to me! NOT ONCE could the possibility be MAYBE it wasn't ME to the extreme it was being stated. That's the part I think some of the simplistic advice givers don't realize! This two to tango deal when I was breaking under the pressure of being what was called of me! I heard that statement, and I felt helpless.
I could understand it after a while, and I was able to make changes within myself to make a big impact on my own life. Don't take it as a negative - take it as the light just went on now HOW do I change this so I can better my life! When you are dealing with domestic violence within your marriage, and see the TRUE role you had within it - NOT what others think you should be looking at it makes all the difference in the world! To me there is no shame in this - it just IS!
This is a community for people who are struggling and searching. Life can be fine one day and unstable the next. Sometimes the people you count on the most let you down or abandon you. One day you have a good job and financial security; the next day you are homeless and destitute.
But in the midst of all your life storms, there is hope! You may find glimmers of hope here and there through the generosity and compassion of fellow travelers. But the hope you can count on for all eternity, that pulls you through the darkest night and deepest pit, comes only from one source--your Creator who made you and loves you.
I'm a broken, screwed-up daughter of Eve, but He has redeemed my brokenness and made me beautiful through the light of His love. I don't have all the answers, but I will share with you some of the lessons God has taught me through many failures and losses, as well as in significant successes and blessings.
Peace and Safety in the Christian Home (PASCH) is a coalition of internationally renowned Christian researchers, scholars and theologians who have joined together to increase peace and safety in the Christian home and in the world it serves by addressing and decreasing domestic and sexual abuse in those homes.
PASCH seeks to accomplish this through: Prayer: Our objective is to establish an international prayer network of people desiring to see domestic and sexual abuse eliminated in the Christian home and community.
Collaboration: Our objective is to identify and collaborate with already existing individuals and organizations committed to ending domestic and sexual abuse in the Christian home and community. Prayerfully, this may establish a central place to link Christians working to eliminate abuse.
Resources: Our objective is to identify and disseminate already existing resources that address our mission and to develop resources where none exist.
Education and Training: Our objectives are:
To raise awareness of the Biblical mandate for peace and safety in the Christian home and community.
To raise awareness of the extent of the problem of domestic and sexual abuse in the Christian community.
To provide education, training and resources that specifically address and provide solutions to the problem of abuse in the Christian home and community.
To host an international conference annually or bi-annually where Christian educators, theologians, service providers, clergy, para-church organizations, law enforcement personnel, and lay persons (both those providing help and needing help), can convene to create vision, share resources, and stimulate further advancement in the arena of ending domestic and sexual abuse in the Christian home and community.
Danni speaks about abuse within the Church - because it matters! She addresses domestic violence, sexual abuse, spiritual abuse. She speaks out these matters in a very well written way, because most of the time it tends to be ignored.
So many times I have read or heard these messages of forgive and forget like God does. To me it seems like they don't wish to confront the sin as mentioned in Matthew. To me its a counterdiction of scripture. I mean which is it? Confront sin or forgive and forget? It seems to me this is handled upon the parties comfort level. If they don't wish to face the abuser - forgive and forget is used. We can forgive and forget as the saying goes if the person turns from their sin, but if they are constantly asking for forgiveness for the same sin? There is no heart change there, and that is what God asks of everyone. It seems discernment needs to be used.
Forgiveness to me is for US and not for anyone else! I see it as God's way of telling us he doesn't wish us to harbor contempt and other burdens that would hold us down. He wants us to let it go, and he asks us to pray for them to help us do just that! Forgiveness is a tool to have a heart change as God would wish us to have. Abusers will ask for forgiveness, and its NOT for them! They use this as a tool to wipe the slate clean, but God is asking for a heart change. He is asking that you turn from your sin, and you truly repent to him first, the person you hurt second, and you do your darnest to turn away from those sinful behaviors forever!
I see many churches adding burdens to the forgiveness that clearly aren't meant to be. It just makes things easier for them it seems, and forgetting tends to enable the sins to continue. If take the consequences away from the sinner do they truly learn? Some way, but most that are not repentive see this as a green light to continue. I mean where is the consequence for their actions? There isn't any! Trust is broken when the sin is always brought upon people, and trust and forgiveness are two different aspects. At times removed trust is the only safe option due to history. God may forget the sins, but we are NOT God!
Forgiveness is for YOU, and not the abuser in your life! Its for the heart change that God wishes us to have.
We are to forgive others because that is what God has asked us to do. The forgiveness is for US, and not for THEM! I think its because it would be easier to let go of the resentment, bitterness, etc. Things God doesn't wish us to hold on to.
The forgive and forget part? I don't buy that either. It enables people to continue to hurt you and others. We are to call out sin, and to stand against it. I think at times people ask you to forgive and forget because they don't know how to deal with it, and its easier to say that then to DEAL with it! If we are to just forgive and forget why would we need the verses in Matthew on how to confront people? lol kind of a counterdiction of either other!
God knows that some will not repent of their wrong doings towards others, but we can continue to pray for them - which God asks us to do. Again I think that helps us NOT hold on to the hurt, resentment, etc. That doesn't mean we would automatically trust the person. I see alot of people almost hint that if you don't trust the person - you haven't forgiven them fully. There are circumstances in which there are very sound reasons for not trusting them, and again I think its a way for people not wanting to get their hands dirty and deal with the uglies at times when they preach the if you have no trust you haven't forgiven!
A good restoration of a relationship starts with the party asking God first for forgiveness, asking for forgiveness towards the party they hurt...and turning away from that sin completely. Where it gets sticky is if they continue to do the sin that caused things, and all they keep doing is asking for forgiveness...and NOT doing any heart work! That's NOT genuine, and we have all seen people that do this. They truly have no drive towards change - they just want forgiveness. At that point they are NOT truly safe to be around. They are NOT a safe person, and yes trust isn't justified. That party sets themselves up for the consequences of that, and they have to learn to live with it also. I do agree that some will pressure you to keep letting go, but they aren't doing the sinner any favors by this guilt. People do learn by others allowing them to fall on their faces, and YES at times losing everything due to their sins.
We can forgive without trusting, and we do this so we don't' harbor feelings God doesn't wish us to harbor! We are NOT asked to forgive only after they other party repents...as I have also heard! lol think about how many don't? God wouldn't wish you to harbor things because it would just hinder your walk! People that demand forgiveness so they feel better about sinning against you don't grasp what forgiveness is about. Its not so they can feel better all the time - its so our heart stays where God can continue to mold us to me! Don't wait to forgive those that don't' wish to repent - that only hinders you!
lol I do agree that alot of advice at times does ask you to enable! I don't' quite understand it either at times. I think we grow when living the consequences at times. Humbling themselves is a good thing, and at times falling on our faces can spark that! If we keep forgiving and forgetting it doesn't always happen! We all need discernment when it comes to certain issues. At times you do forget because of the circumstances, and how they have turned from their sin. If they continue in the sin, and you are asked to forgive and forget on a constant basis I don't understand how people grow into better people if they are enabled to continue the sin, and how people seem to think this magical transformation is going to happen is pretty much insane to me. God allows consequences for a reason, and if we take those away..... I mean there are reasons consequences are there to begin with right? Do people seriously think everyone will learn without them? I know I have learned from consequences!
