Parent to Parent: Creflo Dollar the Devil had nothing to do with this

I have enclosed a picture of Creflo Dollar.

 

He is a nice looking man, and he made big news recently regarding a family matter with his teenage daughter.

 

The media reports at first didn’t have the entire news story posted, and left out key facts that should have been included.  The way the story was written you got the impression that his child wanted to leave for a party that night at 1am, and he told her no.  You read all these responses to the story about how they wouldn’t allow their child to leave for a party then either, and how they would have known better to even ask.

 

Within a day they corrected the error, and what really happened?

 

He and his 15 year old were having a discussion about a party she wanted to go to the next evening.  This time of year no doubt it was a friend’s graduation party.  That is just my stab at it anyway.  Daddy said NO due to bad grades.  I feel that is more than reasonable.  Keep in mind she was asking about a party the next day, and NOT wanting to leave at 1am that night as the news reports stated or hinted at in error.

 

It seems that discussion may have been a bit more than heated, and as he states ‘emotional’ than most conversations about rules, boundaries, etc within the home.  We may never know what happened prior.

 

His teenager then left to go into the kitchen to cry, and as teens do at times to lick their wounds.    As a parent at that point YOU LEAVE THEM ALONE! 

 

They can get under YOUR skin due to their age and maturity level, and once they get done crying HOPEFULLY you can continue the discussion if need be.   You both need to cool off, because we all know stupid things happen when you deal with them in a emotional charged atmosphere.  Most parents that have teens own that teeshirt as the saying goes.  You are not the first one Pastor Dollar!

 

If he had left her be?  I doubt what happened next would have transpired.  He went into the kitchen to ask WHY she was crying, and she told him she didn’t want to talk about it.  Crying in her soup is not disrespectful – its feeling sorry for herself.    She may have not been justified (and we don’t know that now), but its not a show of disrespect towards you at all.    It a normal boundary when you know you can’t deal with anything at that point.  You took that too personally.

 

Honestly?  I think of parental statement that is thrown out to often, and shows disrespect for children.  “If you don’t stop crying I will give you something to CRY about!”  He may not have said it, but Creflo Dollar backed up that statement in his actions.

Victims are against forgiveness as the solution to the problem

I actually call forgiveness the "F" word for the evangelical community, because of how they use forgiveness.  

It's not that victims are against forgiveness. 

Victims are against forgiveness as the solution to the problem.  

Because the problem will go on and on and on as long as every victim continues to give forgiveness.  The organization does not have to address the issues. 

All God’s Children Documentary

As you might have guessed I was watching All God’s Children on Youtube the other night, and the above quote I felt was very profound.  The Video segment above has this quote.

Children of missionaries were placed in boarding schools while their parents served as missionaries – in this case in Africa.  The children were abused badly by the caregivers, and as adult survivors they asked the missionary organization to start dealing with what happened.  The organization threw out the ‘forgiveness’ card, and stonewalled with prevention of this from happening to other children.  They wanted to blow it off as a ‘select few’ that I’m sure they wanted to treat as bad apples, but were overwhelmed with the numbers of survivors that came forward after the story went public.

What happened next was a show of fear towards the missionary alliance’s reputation, and self preservation.  They attempted to ‘deal with it’, but you get the sense they did it more from pressure than from genuine concern.  

Once the heat was removed (somewhat anyway) they were able to go on ‘doing God’s work’.   What they failed to realize or face was helping these victims, and preventing future victims IS God’s work as well.  They pretended their priories were not out of whack.

Sadly, what it shows is if other missionary children are abused?  They have no hope of true support within their community.  They will be set adrift.  I pray that the links I supplied below will be of help to you.

As the men and women within this video documentary spoke of the triggers they deal with to this day?  That doesn’t show a lack of forgiveness, but of struggle. 

They are still struggling to learn to cope with their past, and superhuman type of forgiveness others demand of them is NOT helping them by any stretch of the imagination.

Its true that the faith community does tend to use forgiveness so they don’t have to address the problem or issues.  Once the victim ‘forgives’ they move on as if nothing ever happened.  Victims are left to deal with this on their own, and sharing the burdens that comes from healing is the ‘unforgiveable’ to ask for.

Today forgiveness is a tool that is used, so the church doesn’t have to deal with things that seem to ugly.

Forgiveness is suppose to be for us, and yet it is used as a ‘on demand’ concept for others.  The forgiveness then turns into something for others, and not for the victim at all. 

You see this way to often when dealing with emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and spiritual abuse.  Most of the time people that abuse others in this way?  The victims are asked to forgive their abuser, and then sadly those victims must then find ways of forgiving those that counseled them (on forgiveness) because they would rather wipe the slate clean afterwards – then help them mend other aspects that go along with healing afterwards.

You see those cycle of emotions afterwards are used as ‘points of unforgiveness or bitterness’, and that is the big lie when it comes to support of abuse victims.  Its laziness, unforgiveness towards victims, and fear of how this would impact THEIR circumstance and might bruise THEIR lifes or organization.    It has nothing to do with smearing God in some way, but has everything to do with their fear of facing sin.  Its self perseveration in the ugliest form.

Cycle of Healing – When do you face this?

They say its human to take the path of less resistance.  Victims are easy to steam roll because they are in weaken state anyway, and sadly all too often the faith community takes the ‘secular’ path that is far from biblical.

People that are abused, and are allowed healing tend to have cycles similar to the cycle of grief – loss of a loved one.  I remember when my father died they reminded me of these stages, and how they may not go in order – and you can deal with one cycle again and again at times.

• Denial: “This can’t be happening to me.”
  
• Anger: “Why is this happening? Who is to blame?”
  
• Bargaining: “Make this not happen, and in return I will ____.”
  
• Depression: “I’m too sad to do anything.”
  
• Acceptance: “I’m at peace with what happened.”
  

They tell you these cycles are normal and healthy.  In time you will reach the other side in which you learn to live with what has happened, and are able to go on with life.  That doesn’t mean you forget about the death, and you don’t mourn anymore.  It means that grief no longer overwhelms your life.  Most people have dealt with a death, and you see the genuine support people need as acceptable due to this.

Sadly, that is NOT true for abuse victims most of the time.  That seems especially true if those victims are within the church body – and the abuser is also.

It amazes me that people just ask this superhuman concept of others (instant forgiveness) when abuse happens, without having them process things that they have dealt with.  Then you notice those that counsel this ‘instant forgiveness’ are the ones railing against some pet sin they are against, and then place this aura of how its ‘everywhere around them’.  No, they aren’t ones that do the superhuman concept of instant forgiveness either.   Sadly, they are in so much denial they can’t see it.

Transformation is what is truly amazing!

They say if you beat a dog long enough he will learn to bite you in return after a while.  In softer terms if you torment a cat all the time you may get a good scratch or bite in defense as well.  Most people can ‘grasp’ and understand these concepts, and most are NOT going to blame the animals for their reaction.  If you take that animal and place it in better circumstances people are amazed at the transformation. 

My Siamese cat died in January – he was 17 years old.  He was rescue animal, and you could tell something had happened in the past due to his fear towards things that most cats would not be.  He never lashed out, or would bite.  He was just full of fear.  He was a young cat, and we used plenty of love, patience, and fun to help him come out of his shell.  In time he slowly came out, and he learned that not everyone/everything around him was worth fearing.  Those fears would pop up from time to time, but they lessoned as he enjoyed being spoiled with praise, kisses, rubs and plenty of kitty treats. 

He learned to trust us, and knew we had his best in mind.  When he was older we brought home a puppy, and at that point our cat was strong enough to show him (the puppy) WHOM the top dog was in the house.  Our cat also was secure enough in his position within the family to learn to love the puppy, and in return the puppy had a healthy respect for that ‘old man’.  My Siamese didn’t fear him as he would in the past, and after the patriarchy was established (if you will) he truly cared for his new pup. 

Towards the end of his life I think he sensed my fear of losing him, and he just lovingly endured things as we tried to save him with genuine affection in his eyes.  The day I put him down he was not afraid either, and he almost gave me one last smile as he fell asleep for the last time.    The transformation in that cat was amazing.

I think it is the same with people that are hurt and abused.  They need love, patience, grace and loads of support.  Fear hurts, and is NOT a comfortable state of living. 

Asking victims to forgive is all well and good, but telling them NOT to process their grief, fear, and the other host of emotions?  Its not healthy nor is it normal way of dealing with things.   People are big on saying love is not an emotion, but an action.  Sadly, the actions are not there with most abuse victims.  Using forgiveness as a tool to wipe the slate clean instead of helping them process what happened to them?  That’s not love its fear.

Avoidance is fear – not love!

On the one hand I can understand and empathize with this fear, but on the other hand I can see the terrible effects not facing those fears have on life.  The instant forgiveness crowd may not realize they cement belief systems in victims when they can not do as God would have them do. 

You learn to NOT trust an abuser, and you learn NOT to trust counsel as well when they also aren’t safe to help them process things.  That isn’t being a perpetual ‘victim’, but common sense towards the human nature.   Its like learning to speak ‘cat’, and telling my old pal he didn’t need our love to move past his fear. It’s unrealistic, and spiritual pixie dust to expect it.

When you read Psalms you hear similar cries of pain and anguish, and yet Psalms is NOT used to show you how NOT to deal with injustice, abuse and neglect.  It doesn’t tell others to have this superhuman forgiveness, so others can wipe the slate clean because they are afraid of dealing with reality of circumstances.  Instead it shows the pain and reality of life at times, and does NOT encourage people to stuff things down because those around them are to afraid to help. 

Its sad that people can show MORE compassion towards the death of pet than they do the destruction of a person.

The church sadly is no different than the world when it comes to injustice within the church.  They just have their unique way of NOT dealing with it.   The abuser tells you that its all your fault, and the quote ‘healthy’ ones within the church tend to send the same message once the abuse surfaces.  Telling them to forgive where the church can forget!  Yes, it’s the same as telling victims its their fault all over again.

It’s a sick mindset.  The denial is also very strong, and you could see this within the IFB community when the Tina Anderson story was exposed.  They just were plain unable to to understand WHY people were against Chuck Phelps being a board member afterwards.  They didn’t conceive the reasons that others didn’t accept their ‘authority’ to hound, manipulate and bully those that cried foul.  The organization called, Do Right BJU was started and BJU felt they were right – and they showed the world how sadly they do not have good grasp on reality nor scripture.

We had a person on a faith board that used to be in existence that loved to use manipulative statements of forgiveness towards other hurting people.  He or She would say something along the lines of, “I’m glad MY God forgives me better than you can forgive others!”  Why people think that type of statement is anywhere near helpful towards anyone just boggles the mind.  Yet this statement reassembles the attitude towards victims of abuse completely.

When it seems forgiveness is more for them than for you?  Its okay to cry foul, and please continue to reach out and find those that do understand what God asks from them towards your pain.

Victims are against forgiveness as the solution to the problem.

Forgiveness isn’t the solution to the problem of denial – its just one step of many towards healing.  It’s the scapegoat of the church uses to NOT do what God asks of them.  You can’t share in each other burdens when you pretend those burdens no longer exist.

The church sadly in most cases are more hurtful than secular society when dealing with sin within their own circle.   I’m so thankful for those individuals, organizations, churches and leaders that live out Christ like Love towards victims.  I just pray that some day they aren’t so few and far between.

Please accept the following links if you also need support:

All God’s Children – Documentary website

Missionary Kids Safety Net

Missionary Kids Advocates Forum

MK Planet online community for current MKs and Adult MKs (MK=Missionary kids)

The Hope For Survivors Ministry providing support for victims of clergy sexual abuse

In the links section at the top of my blog is other types of support and missions to help you with your faith towards healing.

My prayers are with you, the faith community, and lastly the abusers themselves.

Violence Against Women Act Submitted Changes, Phyllis Schlafly and convicted Felon Timothy Johnson Opposed. Surprise Suprise.

VAWA (Violence Against Women Act) is being held up in the two different houses of the USA’s government.   Please Note: This law does not just cover women, but men who are abused are covered as well under this act. 

I hesitated to write about this, because I was confused as to what they were fighting about in congress.  The media is so biased that you can tell which side of the aisle they are on just by their writing style, and its hard to make out what the true issues are.  You can always figure out what their issue is, but you can’t get a straight answer as to what the true issues are.  Politics shouldn’t be played with people’s lifes in this way.

I will first mention some of the changes some members of congress wish to see happen to the VAWA, and end with a “Christian” organization that opposes it altogether.

Afraid of Conflict Resolution

I will admit at times I get apprehensive about being ‘real’ around certain people.  I used to be REALLY bad at that, because I was taught that you should always be the sugar sweet person at all times. 

 

That means instead of voicing your opinion about why something makes you upset?  You have to stop, think, and possibly go a different route to voice this – or you know not to voice it at all. 

 

Why?  People tend to point out your attitude as they see it, and wish to deal with that more than the substance of the point or hurt in question.

 

I’m not going to say that it’s a bad thing to watch your tone and approach.  I will say at times we tend to go a little to far in that realm.  If your approach isn’t ‘just so’ that is what is pointed out and concentrated on more than the true hurt that people need to deal with.

 

The Wartburg Watch recently had an article called the confessions of a SGM Pastor.  They speak of two awful stories about people within a fellowship that found out their children had been sexually abused by another party within the fellowship.  The principals that church followed were to help bring ‘peace’ among all parties.  The problem is in order to have this ‘peace’ they basically avoided dealing with the circumstances completely.  The families couldn’t speak of the hurt and betrayal they felt over the molestation, because to the church it showed their lack of forgiveness.

These were situations where the family of the victim and the family of the perpetrator were friends. There were pre-existing, close relationships. As they’re trying to sort these things through, when relational conflicts arose between the victim’s family and the perpetrator’s family, we unwisely used a Peacemaker model for conflict resolution. This resulted, put them on an equal plane – get the log out of your eye, get the log out of your eye, go for the speck, go for the speck – this resulted in the victim’s family being corrected when they should have been gently cared for as sufferers.

I read this and I thought of the many stories we have all heard not only that dealt with this issue, but also the theme of the blog – domestic violence in the church.  This is more doctrine that fact.

 

How often are men, women and children asked to look at their own sin before they speak about verbal abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse?  I think of Tina Anderson , and how she was asked to own 1% of the sin of her being raped.  How many stories have read over at Danni Moss’s Blog, Because It Matters in which she spoke of boy and girls being molested by people in the church, and adults feeling very justified in attacking the children to defend the adult.  How these children were running after the molester to be with them – thus they must have wanted it.    How the adult in the church was a 'Godly’ person, and just made a mistake.

 

How often do we hear hints of BE more submissive, watch your tone and approach, and make sure you are ‘encouraging’ to the person that is abusing you verbally, emotionally or physically? 

 

We don’t do well in gently caring for sufferers.  When a spouse or child are being abused we see more often than not how we need to realize a relationship is 50/50 in fault, and we never attempt to deal with the dangerous brokenness of character – or obvious sinfulness of that person.  We are asked to look for the GOOD qualities, and don’t be so nasty that all you see is the BAD ones! 

 

Yes.  There are always assumptions about your motivation, character, and how you dealt with things so far.

Its not a Communication Problem. Its not an Anger Managment Problem.

Can't see Video?  Click here.


All to often when abuse victims try to describe what is happening in their life they are told they have ‘communication’ problems.

That is one of the biggest misunderstandings it seems to me.  It isn’t a communication problem between the two parties at all.

On occasion my children and I watch Teen Mom.  One of the couples since the show started was Amber and Gary.  Amber in this case is the abusive party.  Gary on the other hand seems to be the enabler, along with the victim.

I don’t think most people blame a couple for trying to stay together, because they have a child.  If you watch Amber she got herself into trouble for physically attacking Gary, and like most abusive people has a really hard time dealing with the consequences.

I wasn’t able to upload these video clips to youtube due to copyright, and you may have to download Adobe Flash in order to view it the video I have supplied.

One thing you notice is that abusive people refuse to handle the ugly sides of things most of the time.  I can empathize being scared because you know the police and child protective services is looking to speak to you.  Anyone in their right mind would be a bit intimidated and scared.  Amber on the other hand handles this in true abuser fashion.

It’s the way they handle anxiety that causes conflict.  Its not a communication problem, and its not an anger problem.  They divert this anxiety to other things, and attempt to start fights.  They next thing you know they are saying things to bait you into saying something they can attack you over.  They are screaming irrational stuff that makes no sense.  You are often left confused, and wondering how the conversation got to the point it did. 

Lets look at the first scene:

Right away Gary is trying to approach this ugly circumstance in a smart way.  He wants to speak to Amber about getting lawyer, before they deal with the police or Child Protective Services.  Notice how they can’t even have that conversation!

The police want to talk to Amber, and she doesn’t want to deal with this at all.

“So you do thing it would be smart for me to get a lawyer, or do you think it would be smart for me to go to jail?”

“So, if a lawyer is more than jail should I just go to jail?”

You can tell by Gary’s face he realizes she is attempting to bait him into a fight.  She rambles off two irrational questions right off the bat.

She doesn’t want to deal with this.  She doesn’t want to get a lawyer.  She doesn’t want to talk about this.

Gary at this point is attempting to communicate with a person that is going into her irrational mindset.  When abusers get like this?   There is no talking to them. 

I realize some people would tell you then approach it at a different time.  What they REFUSE to acknowledge is this is HOW abusive people deal with anxiety and fear – and there IS no GOOD time to approach this.

Amber would much rather fight if Gary doesn’t shut up, and make this go away.  Amber would rather blame Gary for this happening to begin with.  We all know that things can’t be approached in that fashion.  The victim is placed between a rock and hard place.  You already know a fight is going to happen, because the irrational nature has already started.

She is combative because she thinks the world should leave her alone, and if it has to happen GARY can pay for it!  Why?  Its his fault this happened, and he needs to pay for the consequences.

“The next time someone calls for me how about your give me the phone” – as if she could handle this circumstance.    As if that has anything to do with the conversation. 

They Turned Out Despite THEM!

I sitting here praying this morning for Tina Anderson, and all those that are watching and waiting for the jury to come back.  Will there be justice? 

I think some justice has happened even before this trial started.  Willis will go to jail no matter what the jury comes back with today. 

I pray for a different type of justice – that people will open their eyes and hearts to those families that don’t give their children a chance.

What I saw at this trial – among other things – is adults at the time trying to SHAMEFULLY take ‘credit’ for the awesome adults that Tina and Tom turned out to be.  It amazes me because their ‘safe adults’ in childhood were just as dangerous as their stepfather Daniel Leaf at the time.

These adults – Tina and Tom – turned out despite the outrageous conduct, behavior, and ghastly beliefs the adults in their life's made them endure.

The church’s ignorance is killing children, and if we are lucky enough to have some survive?  It wasn’t due to the adults in their life's – they survived despite them.  Can we get REAL for a moment!  Its shameful that people TRY to take credit where CREDIT isn’t due!

Tina and her brother Tom never had a chance.  It is their faith, and their push to have a life later on that should teach others.  Yet you have people like Christine Leaf – their mother – that use their mostly awful judgment as a parent to say it wasn't all that bad – look at how they turned out!

The truth is they turned out well despite their mother.

The Passing of Danni Moss - Because It Matters

Its with a heavy heart, and deep sadness that I wanted to inform everyone of the passing of Danni Moss.  She had been struggling her illness (recurring cancer) for sometime, and finally passed away yesterday.

I had been out of commission for a host of reasons recently, but felt drawn to post of the loss of Danni.

Because it Matters was her blog, and her writing style and viewpoints will be greatly missed.  The link I supplied is part of her story of attempting to grasp how to deal with domestic violence within the church, and how the church in her circumstance - along with many others - just didn't know what to do about it.

I was surprised to find that my pastors would not stand against the abuse in my marriage, even when they knew I was telling the truth about it.  The first time I left Gary, my pastors (SBC church) were shocked at my accusation of abuse.  They did not believe me.
 
I later learned that apparently a huge percentage of women who leave their husbands claim abuse as the reason.  Abuse is a nice hot-button word that, at one time perhaps, engendered automatic horror and sympathy.  Now (and perhaps always, I don’t know) there is so much concern that accusations might be false pastors “err on the side of caution” and are more likely to disbelieve an accusation of abuse than to take it seriously.

The church provided counseling from an elder who was also a professional certified counselor.  In our first session, which was when I told Gary I was leaving him (he didn’t know before then because I was afraid of him) the counselor got to see his anger.

However, Gary’s facade never completely cracked in public in 20 years of marriage.  Only one time did he ever reveal his rage to someone outside his own family (wife and children) and that was to his sister.  But to her it was a one-off anomaly.  For us it was a way of life.  When I tried to tell counselors about his anger they discounted it, thinking I meant “anger” in the way we all sometimes get angry.  By anger I meant uncontrolled rage.  But if I used the word “rage” with counselors they just heard “anger” and discounted it.

Danni speaks of the roadblocks that are placed in front of the victim of domestic violence.  She speaks on how they err on the side of caution, and when you speak of the uncontrolled rage how they discount it.

Properly trained counselors do know how to go about seeking truth compared to falsehood.  I do believe that since the church has a motive of keeping marriages together at all costs they ignore parts of that training.  I have to wonder at times if some of them get trained in that area at all.

I have seen and read numerous calls for help, and how people speak of this uncontrolled rage - and it was also ignored and discounted.  Most of the time people are told to concentrate on their sin, and then try to find that sin to focus on to get the point across.

So many times I have seen online people being told they have to do this because their spouse isn't there to give the other side to the story, and yet in Danni's case the same treatment was given when that other side was clear to everyone.  He was there and showed his true colors up close and personal.

This counselor knew these things were happening in our home; I told him everything.  He said he believed me.  In hindsight though, as a licensed counselor, he either did not believe me or he deliberately chose to violate the law because he did not report it to the authorities.  I didn’t know then that he was legally required to report abuse if he was told about it.

But his attitude was the same as I found from every other Christian counselor (except the one who did report my husband).  Saving the marriage was their only consideration.  This first church counselor told me that I had no grounds for a divorce, period.  I started proceedings toward divorce because, while he was crying on everyone’s shoulders in public, in private Gary was threatening to charge me with child abuse, to take the children and run out of state, to cut me off financially, etc.  I consulted with several professionals and they told me my only protection was to get a divorce.

When the church places 'grounds for divorce' ahead of personal safety I have to wonder if they have totally lost their prospective that Jesus would have them see.   When legally you are told that the only way you can protect yourself and your child/children is divorce to escape domestic violence why does the church see 'saving the marriage' as their only consideration.

Laws are different all over the place, and yes at times your only protection is filing.  You are placed between a rock and a hard place when you throw your faith into this reality.  The church will claim you don't have forgiveness in your heart, and your hard heart is the real issue.  The true reason for these actions are completely ignored, because they see no biblical reason for the divorce. 

When you are told that God stands for truth, mercy, grace, love, etc. ? When you are told how and why Jesus died on the cross for us?  It boggles the mind of everyone 'outside the church' and YES some of us 'inside' that people use legalism instead of plain common sense.  You don't tell people to stay in harms way when they ask for help, and yet this is what is encouraged.

The church doesn't help the family, nor the abuser in this instance.  You have to wonder WHY they feel justified?!

However, I told the counselor and my pastors that I would stop the divorce if Gary gave any indication of repentance.  The pastors and counselor promised they would keep that qualification a secret.  After winning me back with an amazing repentance performance (that I didn’t realize until years later was all private – he never acknowedged publically that he had done anything wrong) Gary slipped and told me one of the pastors had told him I would drop the divorce if he repented.  Still later, he denied it.  But how would he have even come up with such a statement in the first place if the pastor hadn’t told him?


In this first separation, the church denied the reality of the abuse in my home, failed to report the abuse allegations to the authorities, and betrayed my confidence to Gary, enabling him to manipulate me back into the marriage with their support and blessing.

This is another factor I see all to often.  The 'means to the end' to keep that family together.

They don't wish to deal with the sin directly, but manipulate factors to accomplish their goal.  Is it any wonder why the divorce rates are the same as the world's?  The church will blame the parties within the marriage, and yet ignore their own portion of it.

Its like a weed in your yard.  You can see the weed, and pull out the surface along the grass line.  As you know unless you find the root to remove - the weed will grow back.  I hear all to often about the parties 'lack of faith', or 'belief in truth'.  Why they can't acknowledge their 'means to the end' shows just that is beyond me!

The second time I separated from Gary the pastors of my church (the same church) did believe me.  I had started telling them things were slipping back into old patterns within a couple years of our previous separation.  By “old patterns” I was talking about the physical violence.  It wasn’t until about the time I left him for the final time that I acknowledged the verbal abuse was just as serious a problem.

Four years after our first separation, I took our oldest son, J, to a Christian counselor recommended by a pastor friend (who later became our pastor).  My goal was for us to learn how not to push Gary’s buttons and cause his anger and violence – I still didn’t understand that Gary was responsible for his own anger and rage choices.

When I told the counselor what was happening, culminating in Gary punching J in the stomach in front of neighbor children when I was away from home, she told me she would talk to J to see what he said, but if he said the same thing I had, she was required by law to report Gary to the authorities.  And she did.

Even though my pastors believed me the second time, I was clearly told they would do nothing.  Well, to be specific, the senior pastor called me into his office for a meeting.  He told me that he believed it could be that I had no choice but to get a divorce (which I was not pursuing at that time) if Gary did not repent of his abuse.  But at the same time he told me not to tell anyone he had said so – which I correctly interpreted to mean he wasn’t going to say so in public or make any move to stand up for us.

Keeping up appearances, and making a half hearted attempt to deal with reality is yet another roadblock.

Dealing with abuse of any kind is ugly, and there are never any good answers.

The church will acknowledge the the spouse can't change the other spouse, but the follow up in how to deal with that reality is sorely lacking.  Pray for a miracle, and just do your part is normally the pat answer.  You are then set a drift to do this on your own.  Some things are just to dirty to deal with for the church, and they wonder WHY people feel betrayed?!

They guilt trip the party that is clearly asking for help, and yet never confront and deal with the abusive party.  You are told to come and ask for help when you need it, and yet you are handed basically nothing.  Acknowledgment, Validation, and even someone saying 'I don't know how to help you' would go a long way, and yet that would go against the appearance they need to give. You are asked to walk on eggshells around this person, and somewhat told they 'know its wrong' without truly STATING it like they need to.

Gary did not want us to have anything to do with the counselor who reported him to the authorities, telling me our former counselor discredited her (I never heard it directly from the source but I believed him at the time).  I didn’t trust the counselor from our church that we had previously, based on what had come out of that experience.

A close friend and mentor offered to provide counseling.  She was not a Baptist (which was a positive factor to me by that time) and I had seen God use her, so I trusted her.  She was not a professional counselor but had majored in counseling in some capacity in school.

However, she did not believe I should have separated from Gary.  In her theology that was never acceptable since it was “putting asunder” what God had joined.  This was lack of godly submission on my part.  In our 4-5 sessions she focused on me during all but one.  She never believed me about the abuse or violence.  And after just a few sessions she told me “God said” it was time for us to get back together.

Nothing had been addressed.  Gary never had to acknowledge what he had done and he definitely came out of that separation believing he had been vindicated.  My heart shattered in a million pieces.  But I obeyed her because that’s what I’d always been taught to do. 

Enabling is yet another tool in the chest to keep the marriage together at all costs.

The authorities and church will acknowledge that abuse is happening, and yet you don't 'put asunder' what God has joined.  Don't deal with the sin, and ask the victims to 'submit more'.  When a broken person doesn't have to admit their actions?  When nothing is dealt with?  Where is the incentive for the sinful behaviors to stop?  Where is his incentive to become the man that God would wish him to be?  Where is the support the whole family needs during this trial that the church claims THEY will be there for?

Due to the fact Danni 'obeyed' as she had been taught?  To the church it shows the 'lie' they assumed was there.  It wasn't that bad.  No one sees how victims get nailed if they leave (sin), or if they stay when told they must (SEE it wasn't that bad afterall!).

Gary convinced the social worker that I had taught J to be rebellious.  He convinced the social worker and everyone else who would listen that J was so violent and rebellious that he (Gary) was only defending himself and standing up for his honor when he hit his son on a very regular basis.  No one would listen to me when I tried to tell them J was responding back to his father in exactly the same tone of voice, profanity, and attitude that his father used toward him.  The people in Gary’s required anger management course told him if their son back-talked them they’d hit him, too.

For the remainder of our marriage, Gary believed it was his right to hit back “in self defense, to stand up for himself as a man”, physically or verbally, every time he could egg one of the boys into a fight. And he was usually the one doing the “egging” – he just didn’t swing first, so he could say he never “started it.”

This incident cemented J’s hardness toward God because the church and the system that was supposed to protect him, blamed him.  He knew from then on, his father would always be believed and he would be the “bad guy.”  It happened over and over.  My health broke down due to the stress at this point.

The church also forgets about the children.

I don't know how many times articles about how children are better off with 'two' parents are placed out there to encourage you not to divorce or separate.  They stress the damage you are going to do to the children.

Abusers don't just target their spouses.  The abusive behaviors they refuse to acknowledge within the homes, and the pressure to 'keep together' are damaging the children.  Children don't even have to be direct targets of the abuse for them to be effected, and yet no one will go there.

When children start to break under the pressure of the abusive environment once again the abuser gets off.

People tend to take the path of less resistance.  Its easier to blame the parent and children than it is the abuser directly.  Who is more likely to 'bow' to their pressure?  The frighten people or the abuser they know will ignore them?

I wanted to believe that this time the reconciliation would be different.  I desperately wanted it to be OK.  If more submission was the problem then that’s what I wanted to do.  But I couldn’t understand why his abuse and violence were always excuseable.  Why was his anger always excuseable but no one else was allowed to have any emotions other than delight in his every thought or expression – even the nastiest ones?

After our second separation, we ended up changing churches for reasons unrelated to our marital issues.  We went back to a church we had attended the first couple years of our marriage.  Through one thing and another the pastors of this church were aware of our marital situation through the intervening years.

It didn’t take long before they began to see problems with Gary themselves.  This was surprising to me because no other pastor had ever bothered to pay attention enough to see problems.  They proved for themselves that he was a liar, manipulative and controlling; this had nothing to do with our marriage or family issues.

When Gary’s anger, rage and literal expressions of hatred toward me increased while I was sick after chemo I realized it was never going to end.  This time I didn’t attempt counseling.  I knew what would happen; it had all happened before.  I also felt that God was very specifically leading me to get a divorce - an assertion that has gotten me a lot of flack.  But I’ve been listening to that voice for a long time; I know what it sounds like.  I had also told Gary after the second separation that if he escalated again I would get a divorce.  And that’s what I did.

However, when I told my pastors I was getting a divorce I was surprised to find they were not supportive – even though they knew I was telling the truth.  But one pastor said, while I might need to get a divorce for the safety of myself and my children, I could never remarry since there was no known sexual adultery.  I have no idea whether Gary’s subsequent remarriage would change his opinion about this.  The other pastor said I had no grounds for divorce since there was no known sexual adultery – regardless of the abuse going on in our home. The logic which would allow him to kill me but not have sex with someone else escapes me.

You would think people would grasp that this woman needed help if her husband was even this cruel as she struggled with her chemo treatments, and fought to survive.

Instead of support that was clearly needed to escape a dangerous person?  She receives speeches about how she can't marry again, and how she doesn't have 'grounds' for divorce biblically.  No one stepped up to give her other alternatives, and her and the children were set adrift.  The 'world' sees this type of behavior, and is it any wonder WHY they question things?

The church looks like a bunch of fools (rightfully so), and yet makes excuses that the world hates them and reminds themselves that Jesus told them they would.  They don't grasp that they are not showing the world the values they claim they represent.  When Jesus told his disciples that other people would know that they were His disciples because of their love for one another (John 13:35), He was telling them about the main characteristic of a true Christian.  As in Danni's circumstances and many others that love for one another to me isn't present, and what the world is sensing as well.  Instead of acknowledging this?  Well all we have to do is read more of her story....

I was very hurt by this, even though I understood why they said the things they did and they weren’t ugly or mean about it.  What pastors (speaking in general of all the pastors I had) don’t realize is that when they don’t stand up for abuse victims, by default they stand up for the abuser.  The victim needs the protection of the church leadership at least standing up to say, “this person is getting a divorce with cause.  We know about it, we know the details, and we agree the cause is valid.”

Even if they don’t give details, taking a stand for abuse victims when asked keeps the abuser from poisoning people against the victim — which will happen, guaranteed.  It happened with me and really hurt that Gary went around telling people a variety of lies about me and muddied the water.  I still do not feel completely comfortable in that church because I know there are people there who see me the way Gary painted me, even without realizing it.

I realize that churches at times don't see this part, and at times like alot of the dynamics they don't wish to see.  They to often sprinkle spiritual pixie dust around, and hope it just goes away.

When it doesn't and the marriage fails we see the bolded portion of what she quoted on her facebook page.

I'm a 40-something single mom starting over after 20 years of marriage. I'm loving learning to be myself; life is so interesting and fun! I'm an information sponge and endlessly curious about everything, so school suits me to the core.

I've been in school the past couple years, pursuing a degree in psychology. This was mostly a second choice, since I had basically faced the reality that I was not going to be acceptable in church - and my passion is to bring healing to hurting Christians.

However, over the past year I have gradually come to realize that I don't have to settle for second choice. I have finally found a church home where I can have a place and be fully accepted. I have also found a Bible college whose theology I can agree with where I can train for full-time ministry. So I am trusting for provision to be able to go that direction.

It seems to me at times if you can't go along with the program, and use denial - pretend things are like this - etc. you are treated like the leper in church.  It amazes me how the church will step up and out for causes such as abortion, homosexuality, etc because they feel they are called to do so.  When it comes to the dynamics that tear apart families apart they remain silent if truly look at what they have to offer.


That is the part that I felt betrayed by the most.  When you have tragic circumstances in your life, and you find their formula isn't addressing your safety concerns?  The grace Christians claim they give because Jesus called them to isn't present.  Some people get mad at God, but its not God that did this.  God would not allow people like Danni to feel unacceptable in his eyes - humankind is the one to blame for that.  They just use God as their excuse.

Danni I feel Jesus was speaking of you when he said:

"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.  If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."  (John 15:18-19)

Jesus chose you, and you are now finally out of pain.  You will be missed!

So why will pastors not take a stand for the abused within their churches?

One, they don’t want to make a mistake in taking sides.  If an abuser denies the allegation of abuse, they are afraid not to believe him (or her).  However, from the first separation I begged my pastors to follow the Mt. 18 pattern for church discipline.  But they wouldn’t do it and follow through to the final step of withdrawing fellowship.  The problem with this is, when pastors will not “take sides” they are taking sides.  They are taking the side of evil and leaving the abused abandoned in their abuse.  The hurt of this is overwhelming!

Pastors are also afraid of creating division in the church.  This is the ostrich approach to the issue, I suppose.  Unfortunately, the Bible says that those who sin are to be rebuked publicly so others will see and fear.  The silence of the church on the issue of abuse is contributing to its continued growth because abusers are affirmed in their behavior.  So by saying nothing pastors are “calling evil good” and enabling evil to continue.

The big one though is that pastors don’t want to be guilty of “putting asunder” what God has put together.  They take one statement by God (repeated two or three times in the Bible) out of the context of the whole and elevate it above every other consideration.  As I outlined in my article on the theology of an abusive marriage, the Bible has more to say about the issue of abuse.  Besides the little bit in that article, there is even more Scripture has to say about marriage and abuse as well.  But seminaries and Bible colleges don’t teach the rest of the Word on the subject of marriage.

I suspect when pastors fail to take a stand against abuse in marriages, they are afraid of either making a mistake that would earn them God’s wrath or they are afraid of gaining the disapproval of church members who have the power to ruin their careers. 

Until something changes, abuse will abound in Christian marriages.  The Bible does have an answer for the issue of abuse and that answer isn’t silence and denial.

 I do hope the family decides to keep her blog up for others to read.  She did bring healing to hurting Christians - her passion!

I pray that pastors can humble themselves enough to read some of her story and insights.  I hope they can take the pain she and her children had to deal with, and learn to change how they approach this subject.  Was the heat that she was asked to take justified so the church didn't have to deal with some?

As tears stream down my face I ask for prayers especially for her young daughter that will now have to live with him full time.   Danni's family will be in my prayers, and I hope they will find ways of protecting that young child.  I pray for Gary as well so that he may find healing for himself, and be the man that God wishes him to be.

For me Danni - one hurting Christian you have touched ....Thank YOU!  Your love and passion for God and for the world didn't go unnoticed.  I hope your wisdom in your blog is used in the future so that others don't have to deal with the pain of domestic violence within the church as well.

A quote she enjoyed ... "A strong man stands up for himself. A stronger man stands up for everyone else." -- heard on a kids show, of all places.  I think that fits her to a tea! 

Tell Me Why!!

Someone mentioned the song, "Tell Me Why" by Taylor Swift.  I'm not truly familiar with her music, but her words were very telling.  The first time I listened I thought WOW she is speaking about the dynamics of verbal abuse and emotional abuse...I wonder if most people noticed that?

On the other hand, when I listened to Tell  Me Why a second time?  I thought of all the rebukes this person would get.  I won't say 'woman' because quite frankly?  I could hear the excuses being handed to every man, women and child.

The artist doesn't have a video for this song, but I found a video link on You Tube for Tell Me Why that gives you the lyrics on the screen.

Feminism Culprit for families breaking up?

How is THAT for title to catch some attention? The Council of Biblical Manhood & Womanhood I guess felt it was a GREAT title for a report that basically didn't say what the titled claimed!  Why use it then?  I suppose because its one of the 'pet' evils they like to rally behind, because the report they speak about doesn't say it.  How about website rating?  Attention getter of other types?

They tell you that your title should have SOMETHING to do with your piece that you write overall, but it would seem to me it was more of a attention getter instead.

The actual report they speak about, but don't link to within their article is called 'The Good Childhood Inquiry'.  That is another question I had!  Why not link to the actual report instead of a newspaper article that they took their quotes from instead of the report?  I mean they suggest quoting from the report, and then state in a around about way it was actually quoting from the newspaper article.  Why not quote from the source itself?  I would assume because the report doesn't agree with claims they love to put out there!

As mentioned towards the bottom of the article CBMW titled 'Feminism the Culprit for Family Breakup? A Controversial UK Study Says So' - no the Study doesn't say what they claim on the title.  Enquiring minds do wish to know WHY they would use that title!  I mean they claim FIRST the articles 'Says so', and then near the bottom it says 'does not establish a causal link between feminism and the destruction of the family' EVEN suggestively as they claim!

Religious Abuse Religious Extremism

As I struggle with my anger over the story of Jaycee Lee Dugard I read a story regarding Elizabeth Smart as well.

In both cases, the accused abductor seems to have been motivated by religious extremism, Ed Smart said.

"It makes you angry that anyone would use God as an excuse to rationalize their predatory behavior," he said.

It amazes me that most people can connect the dots with the religious abuse - among other forms of abuse - with these two ladies, but can't see the downright screwy thinking of the church regarding domestic violence of all forms.

I mean they use GOD to rationalize the abusive behaviors towards family members ALL THE TIME!

WORK ON YOURSELF

I remember years back when I started on my journey of learning that I had experienced abuse. What I was living with was indeed abuse - verbal and emotional abuse. I didn't recognize the physical abuse right away. I assumed that getting the snot kicked out of me was the only form of physical abuse. I learned later that was incorrect as well.

There were a number of people that KNEW I was being abused, and yet never pointed that out to me. They never told me I was being abused. I had never heard of emotional abuse, verbal abuse at the time. They knew I was in the dark about the issues, and instead I was told to 'work on myself'. That was a form of religious abuse to me. Why? It was never validated that what I was dealing with was WRONG on so many levels. I don't have an issue with 'working on yourself', but how can you truly do the work that is needed if people can't vocalize the core issues?

If you can't call out the sin that was happening in my life HOW do you work on it? How can you 'work on yourself' if no one will tell you what you are dealing with? People say that abuse victims are codependent. How certain behaviors of that codependency actually enables the abuser to continue. How you need to learn proper boundaries, and learn to disengage when it comes to certain actions or behaviors. That was 'secular' talk. I don't agree with some of the opinions of the secular concept either, but at least they hit closer to validating my reality at the time!

God, the Cosmic Janitor would fix everything if I just did things the right way! I loved the way Adventures in Mercy described this concept so well! How if I just believed in the Spiritual Pixie Dust they were handing me all would be well! Just follow their instructions step by step, and things will just magically turn around! My faith and commitment to my marriage would be in question if I wasn't willing to do so after all! Do this to the best of my ability! They would tell me if 'best of my ability' was fulfilled! For some reason I wasn't able to gauge that from what I was told. Their definition was religious extremism, and they always had an out about HOW you must not be doing something right if it didn't work!

So how do you 'work on yourself'? Here is the quote from Adventures in Mercy that I thought nailed it on the head!

When I was twenty and full of idealism, I thought that being a Christian meant I would be spared from heartache and spared from the bad things that happen to those poor non-Christians. I thought that if another person said they loved Jesus (and honestly did), that meant they would not do bad things, or that, if they did, they would quickly ammend them upon consideration.

I thought that if I followed the five steps to success, or the a-b-c’s of perfect family’s, or plastered Bible verses all over my wall, that we would be protected from sin and the fall and the destruction that it brings. I thought the Bible-based books I bought would help me fix all problems. I thought that Christian service and Bible memorization would innoculate us from dealing with hard things in hard ways.

I thought that Real Life on Planet Earth didn’t apply to me.

That attitude is so common its sickening! I do remember questioning this concept, but I was quickly shamed over that way of thinking. Why didn't I clue into the fact that was the wrong way of handling things as well? I was used to being shamed, guilted, and told WHAT is WRONG WITH YOU! Just follow the program WILL YA! That wasn't just happening with my marriage, but also my childhood had shadowed this same line of thinking. They had a different way of doing it, and I just assumed that is how the world turned.

IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO

There are situations in life where the phrase does apply, but NOT within an abusive environment. I couldn't understand WHY people need to nit pic over every last detail to find that ONE portion of the relationship that was wrong - so they could use this phrase to hang their hat on!

OH dear! It sounds like your husband tends to be a bit of neat freak, and all you need to do is STEP IT UP a bit in the cleaning of your home! I always go out of my way to SERVE my husband in ways he likes! Granted my husband wouldn't call me those filthy names if I didn't, but maybe there are other things you are doing to push those buttons of his! It takes TWO TO TANGO!

What does that tell a victim? It tells them that their house cleaning that isn't up to par for the abuser, and you pushed their button by NOT doing it THEIR way! Granted SOME people don't call people NAMES over this, but there has to be something else IN ADDITION to this to make him act this way!

You see people within the christian bubble don't act irrational! ONCE you get married all the rules CHANGE! Look for that reason they were justified so you can STOP IT the next time! We are sinners that can't call out the sin without finding the sin on the other side as well! NOW - try finding that verse in the bible!

All their advice did was make me feel worse. I was this bad awful person that caused others to abuse me. I wasn't good enough in childhood, and now not good enough in marriage. People will ALWAYS find something wrong with me! I will never have the 'chaste' behavior down perfectly, and I will always be doing something in my life to screw it up! I will never be deserving of love, respect and honor. Why? I'm not perfect and never will be. I followed the program, and yet my effort wasn't good enough. How can I be good enough for you God?

People with a crushed spirit have now been ground into the earth, and transformed into DUST!

SPIRITUAL PIXIE DUST OR SECULAR ADVICE

I found the concept of verbal abuse one night on the internet, and it was recommended that I read, "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans. I have to tell you it was hurtful and painful to read, but it was like a LIGHT went on in my life! I remember since I lived in a black and white world some of the concepts didn't apply, so of course I spent alot of time talking myself OUT of this concept of 'verbal abuse'. I didn't fulfilled every last concept, so of course it didn't apply to me.

I went outside the church for help with encouragement from people online. I was asked to contact my local domestic violence shelter. The thought of that scared the daylights out of me. Are they going to tell me my situation doesn't apply? Are they going to tell me it isn't that bad? What if they tell me I was silly, and called the wrong place? The thought of more rejection just paralyzed me. I just couldn't figure out WHAT I was doing wrong that made life so painful! I'm NOT saying I felt I was an angel, and perfect in every way! Believe me life had already shown me I was far from that! I think I just didn't wish to risk someone telling me yet again how this had to be something I did to cause this. I felt awful because I couldn't figure out what that evil was within me, and what they attempted to show me about myself certainly didn't fit the bill of evil.

Because It Matters recently wrote an article about her struggles called, Dealing With the Aftermath of Abuse.

When I was in my late 20s I realized I had nightmares most nights and had for as long as I could remember. These nightmares were the product of the church terror motivation campaign – the world is out to get Christians and will torture and kill us all if they get a chance (including showing graphically violent movies depicting this to teens and adults – talk about abuse!); the government is controlled by evil gremlins who hate Christians and will tear apart Christian families if they get a chance; etc.

On the other side of the coin was the church’s constant drill that I was inherently evil and unacceptable. In real life I was regularly held up for public reprimand and ridicule in youth group and at Christian school and that phenomenon appeared in my dreams frequently as well – though I followed the rules religiously. Fortunately, I knew my parents loved me, but in my dreams they turned on me just like the church did. Those dreams were a reflection of what was happening in real life, just magnified and concentrated.

Realizing I was being plagued by nightmares allowed me to address those fears on a conscious level. But they reappear from time to time still. In more recent years, the dreams that haunt me are of my marriage and rejection by the church.

The Religious Extremism kept me feeling guilt and shame. I learned that even if you are unequally yoked that a magically transformation by your chaste behavior could even turns things around. I was noticing that no matter WHAT your circumstance was 'people with little faith' were the ones that struggled, and didn't think their life would turn around if they followed their program. I was beginning to wonder if the mercy, grace and love was something you get to experience once you got into heaven only. WELL for certain people like me of course! I couldn't do anything right so of course that didn't apply.

I learned alot of the advice I was receiving was making my situation worse, and the shaming that I felt over it was a form of religious abuse. If you can't vocalize the reality of my world you can't help me cope with it. I learned within the years the church does divert conversations about my life just like he did. They projected their issues upon me just like he did. SURE it was a different form, but between the both worlds? My faith and home? Both made me feel worse about ME, and I was wondering if I would ever be good enough to love. Love like they said God loves you - not the 'love is just a feeling' type they hit you with. That statement confused me in my circumstance and I felt I was expecting to much from my life and faith. Maybe I was just solidly warped.

My counseling with the domestic violence shelter validated some of the things I wanted to own that no one would allow me to. It wasn't my fault, or something I did to HIM to make him abuse me. Being a better wife doesn't stop the abuse. Playing my role better doesn't change him. They didn't encourage me to leave and divorce. They didn't attack my faith. They didn't shove divorce lawyers down my throat, and tell me how MAN oppressed me. They didn't do any of the things that I was told they would do. They were perfectly okay with me taking a long time to feel safe around them.

The second book I read was Lundy Bancroft's, 'Why does he do that? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men'. I have to say I think I enjoyed that book more than Patricia's book. He broke things down into smaller pieces for me to understand. He spoke of different types of abusive behavior, and he labeled them for me. Some of the behaviors I didn't experience, but there were some I clearly did. WOW it wasn't my imagination afterall! People do actually ACT like this, and YES it is okay to admit it is damaging! WOW! Why did I have to stay in this tortured state all this time? Why can't people just admit it? I had to wonder after a while if they felt the group might question their faith, walk, etc if they dared validate me.

I did find some faith based material on the subject after a while, and I found that huge chucks of it are rejected by the church. The books I spoke about helped me own my reality, and learn to cope with it. My counseling at the domestic violence shelter helped me learn about aspects of me and my experiences in life that were priceless. I found forums online like OUR PLACE, that I could talk to both people of faith...lol and just plain secular people that helped me on this journey.

I found that God does love me, and he will help me along my journey. I'm okay speaking my truth, and if people want to attempt shame me over it? So be it! I won't live their reality anymore. Its not healthy for me. Its okay to have my voice, and speak out against their contradictions and unhelpful viewpoints. Its okay to tell them they are damaging the people they claim they wish to help. God gave me the gifts he gave me, and he also gave me the strength and love he wanted me to have. Man will not tell me not to use them due to some equation they have to fulfill their definition of a Christ follower. I like reality better. My life has alot of hurts, but now I can feel God's love. With all their advice? That is something they just couldn't show me. Their pride and unwillingness to humble themselves to that reality shows me things that I needed to see. They may claim I'm blind, but who is seriously! Who is blind here? It took books, forum, domestic violence shelter, and some fellow Christians that think outside the box to help me see that God loves me. I'm okay with all my warts, because he still loves me. He doesn't have unrealistic hoops for me, and he lead to healing.

I don't need the Religious Extremism, and their list of rules to follow their program. I refuse to take the shame and guilt over their religious abuse to keep me down from reality. I will pray for them, and I hope they soon see the light of truth is better than warping reality into something that makes it more palatable for them.

Mr. Smart said: "It makes you angry that anyone would use God as an excuse to rationalize their predatory behavior," he said. Isn't though?

John Piper's Ignorance is Killing Children!

I was over at Women In Ministry when I stumbled upon advice from John Piper regarding submission and abuse.

If you would rather read the transcript please go to Women in Ministry site she has it there.

The John Piper's in the world need to know that NOT only are the women of his church being damaged, but his STUPIDITY is also damaging the children! That is going to effect our future generations of the church, and their tithes to keep their doors open and also help others.



I'm sorry but I have to look at this man's body language first of all. His giggle at the beginning was offensive for one thing. Its not funny, but a very serious issue.

When the women of his church that have been abused, and wake up and leave his church? John Piper is seriously going to wonder what happened. That's the sad part.

The John Piper's of the world need to step up, and educate themselves on domestic violence within the church. They need to go to a faith based domestic violence organization, and spend some time there. I'm talking about more the HI HELLO to the gate keeper.

This teaching is irresponsible and dangerous, and one day I can see the church getting their BUTTS sued off with the advice they give. He actually told women to take the verbal abuse 'for a season', and a smack down in the evening...then call him in the morning. Has John Piper lose his mind?

If those that are out and feel safe enough, and their children are willing? Have them sit down and write John Piper a letter about dealing with domestic violence within the church as a child.

Allow John Piper to hear from a child that realizes the church has told their Mommy that she needs to take verbal abuse for a season, and allow herself to be hit by Daddy. THEN the church will be called to help mommy with the aftermath. Ask the child to tell John Piper what effect that had on their life. John Piper doesn't seem to understand the damage it does to the WHOLE FAMILY! Domestic violence, and the even the types he giggles at like verbal abuse and emotional abuse DAMAGE Jesus's children!

You see to me the 'leader' of the home Mr. Piper has a responsibility as well.
You as a leader of the church need to sit these children down, and truly explain your position to them as they:

Hide under the beds
Cover their ears
And cry in fear!

I wonder if your position would change as you see the pain in their eyes, and damaging effects of their lifes! I wonder if submission at that point would be as important to you at that point. Do you think Jesus would see it your way?

What the Bible does tell us is this: Children have a special place in God’s heart and anyone who harms a child is inviting God’s wrath upon Him. Jesus welcomed little children to His side and said that the kingdom of God belongs to “such as these”. Mark 10:13 Guess what John Piper? That includes YOU as you lead your congregation to help HARM these children!

Your advice is damaging the children John Piper! You are allowing HARM by your giggle and mocking of this issue. Its real and it hurts. Its damaging, and you have allowed the cycle to continue to the next generation. You John Piper are enabler of abusive behavior. Shame on YOU!

Jesus had harsh words for anyone who would cause a child to stumble, “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” The Bible tells parents to be gentle and loving with their children (Ephesians 6:4; Colossians 3:21).

It seems to me God it is abundantly clear how feels about the issue. Double check your notes, but if you give counsel to the Daddy that harms them? You can't claim ignorance ANYMORE!

You see YOUR LEADER of the home is also damaging the children, and the future generations of the church. You telling women that we don't need to hear from you until its done, and NOT tell her to call the police for her protection and those of the children? HELLO that's illegal in this country! SHAME ON YOU JOHN PIPER!

You are giving them the wrong image of God. You are telling them that the church, and our Lord Jesus would allow their mother to be mistreated, and for them to endure witnessing and living with that. You are telling them its acceptable. Do you think GOD would be pleased with that stand?

Please tell those children that submission teachings are MORE important, and I will tell you they will ask about the teaching for their Daddy. How are you going to answer them? He is the leader of the home? WILL THAT make them SLEEP BETTER?

Please let them know that you have to be SURE what type of abuse you are dealing with so you will know how to respond. Please tell them that one kind of pain from the abuser is better than the other please. They truly need to hear this from your pulpit. How about a children's sermon huh? Please tell the children the truth!

Children? Here is the address!

Desiring God
John Piper
2601 E Franklin Ave
Minneapolis, MN 55406

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Please tell JOHN PIPER that your PAIN is important to GOD! Your witnessing of abuse is SIN in GOD'S EYES! Tell him you will pray for him - goodness knows the man needs it - and tell him you hope he sleeps WELL tonight!

John Piper's your Ignorance is Killing Children! SHAME ON YOU!

Gossip? Lets look at the intent!

Its Gossip! Do not talk about this! You are dishonoring those you should love!

Here are some definitions of gossip that I found.

1. Rumor or talk of a personal, sensational, or intimate nature.
2. A person who habitually spreads intimate or private rumors or facts.
3. Trivial, chatty talk or writing.
4. A person who habitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others
5 A rumor or report of an intimate nature.

If you have read anything in regards to forms of abuse like Emotional Abuse, Verbal Abuse, Physical Abuse, Sexual Abuse, etc. the biggest killer is silence.

People can't help you if they don't know what is going on.

I have seen time and time again Christians shutting down others by telling them NOT to speak of their spouse, unless they are to edify them.

In one of my last last posts about a song about verbal abuse I spoke of a story towards the end. It was about a lady that had survived an abusive relationship, and she didn't feel she could really speak of it.

The reason that she was refraining was because she said that she had done things in her past that she was not proud of; she described them as terrible and horrible things, and she felt that she simply could not speak ill of anyone else. She said that she had no right...

I think we all have things we may have done that we are NOT proud of. Goodness knows I have some as well. I received a very thoughtful reply, and it truly did make me remember things as well.

I had recently been wondering and praying about the issue of discussing what happened to me and how is that different than mere gossip?

I believe the difference is intent.

Am I using what happened to me to teach others how to handle a situation or comfort others? Or am I relating my experiences in a bitter, hateful, malicious, spiteful, vindictive, retaliatory manner?

I do think the 'intent' part is key.

I remember when I started on my journey of recognizing what indeed was happening in my life. I remember some men and women mentioning things from their past, and how they grew past it. It wasn't meant as bitter, and to show how awful their spouse was. It was to make a point to the other person (me), and almost give them permission to open their eyes. I know I'm not alone in saying I felt like I must be the only one on earth experiencing these things. I just couldn't understand WHAT I was doing to trigger such awful reactions from my spouse. What did I say to make him feel he needed to return it with such venom and contempt! How much more softly and gently was I to approach, and how could I stop this walking on eggshells.

I was very aware of my every move! I questioned everything and anything I did with the intent of 'how is he going react?" On the surface most people would think - that's awesome! You think of HIM before yourself! I'm talking the extreme version, because I did that out of fear not serving. I knew the consequences if I stepped out of line. The intent they saw wasn't my reality at all. I would have LOVED it to be, but I did it because I was afraid of him. I was afraid of what would happen to me if I didn't. Big difference!

One of my first articles was about Debi and Michael Pearl. I feel sorry for Debi and Michael Pearl. One of the first things she mentions in her article is that you need to be sure you are almost PERFECT before praying for relief from an spouse that is cruel. Make sure your ducks are in row, and then PRAY that God takes them. Most people dealing with verbal abuse, physical abuse, and emotional abuse and their faith AREN'T looking for God to kill them! They want the abuse to STOP, so they can have that person back they felt they fell in love with.

She encourages her readers to stay silent:

He will see her giving up her rights and not taking offense when he knows he has wronged her. He will see she honors him, obeys him, treats him with respect, and serves him with a non-rebellious, non-resistant attitude. He will see her spirit is not raging outwardly in emotional fits or inwardly in silent brooding of hurt, but her spirit is quiet, restful, and peaceful. He will see she doesn't puff up and talk incessantly in criticism of him—or others. He trusts her. He knows she is not going to discuss him with her pastor or friend. He sees she is wise with what little money he gives her. She is a remarkable woman, not because she is classy in the way she dresses or looks, but in the way she controls her spirit. She rejoices for an opportunity to bless him, and he knows her heart is good. He tries her; he deliberately tempts her into hurt or anger; he judges her unfairly; he demands things of her that he knows embarrasses her, yet she is in subjection to him in all things. And in the end, she wins him by her chaste conversation. It is a promise from God to you. And God goes on to promise more to this obedient, believing lady.

The Pearls set up this 'happily ever after' if you just take the abuse, and keep it to yourself...and wait on God to take charge you will get your fairy tale marriage.

Luk 8:17 "Whatever is hidden away will be brought out into the open, and whatever is covered up will be found and brought to light.

Joh 12:46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness.

I believe that if you keep silent, and allow others to tell you its 'gossip' the cover up will not be found and brought into the light. God knows of course, but people aren't going to understand domestic violence within the church unless its spoke about. How are we to help those that need help if we encourage them to stay silent.

Think of all the testimonies that we hear about how broken people that sinned in all kinds of awful ways, and how their lifes turned around once they came to Christ. Do you think all those people kept silent about the struggles they had on their journey to Christ? Did they not have trusted people in which they could share their struggles and that venom they needed to get out of their system with? If you pick those parties that will give you a soft reply, and accept you but are willing to show your error lovingly - does that NOT show the right intent? Those are the ones you hear about when they speak of their journey in coming to Christ if you listen to them. They will speak of their hills and valleys. Its okay!

I went into stage during my growth in which anger took over. The realization of what is happening in my life was clear, and all the stream from the pressure cooker came to the surface and I exploded. I'm NOT going to sit here and tell you that I didn't say some really nasty things about my spouse. I'm not going to say I didn't mention how I would love to see him HURT as well! I would LOVE to tell you how I lovingly placed all those items in a neat little box, and my reaction was more of Melody Wilkes from Gone with the Wind!
I would be lying, but I would LOVE to say that! LOL! I think at that point of my life if I had SHARED it in group in would more than qualify as gossip! It would have been more of look what happen to me, and join me in the HATE parade! I was lucky that I had friends that accepted that rage within me, and helped me get past it. Place it into prospective so I could grow beyond that point. I don't wish harm or hurt to him anymore. I do wish to tell more about my story so that others can see the light, and move on to healthier aspects of life. Educate those that seem to think keeping silent regarding what I endured isn't healthy either. People speak of their experiences for a purpose, and gossip just isn't the defination!

I respect the women in the story choice of NOT wanting to share her experiences. I remember a time in which I got to after the anger stage in which I couldn't do it either. I saw the error of my own ways, but that didn't MAKE him abuse me. That was his choice. I never returned fire the way he did, because I knew I couldn't live with myself. I can't say I wasn't tempted!

I got food poisoning once, and I was so weak I couldn't get off the bathroom floor. I screamed for him to get me help, and he refused to do that. The next day I was rescued by a family member, and brought to help. I was very lucky I didn't die on the bathroom floor that night. I remember reeling from that experience, and his excuse of saying I wasn't CLEAR enough that I needed help. I was told by Focus Ministries that what I experienced was a form of physical abuse. I never would have put those two things together. His neglect as being physical abuse. I can now use that story as an education tool to show that beating isn't the only form. You don't have to be the burning bed type of women to experience this. My intent now would be education, but in the past it may not have been! I could have used this as a tool to show how awful men are, or how ugly he was, etc. It could have been a tool to keep the bitterness within me. I could have used this as a tool to hurt him with. The truth is MOST men aren't like that, and I know that women could be also that cruel. That bitterness isn't the type of tool I would wish to hold on to. Telling the story in that light wouldn't help in the form of education either. The focus would be more on me, and what is his name - address and phone number so we can hate him also!

Intent IS the difference.

If you have gone to your church or pastor for help, and they told you that you MUST NOT speak of your spouse in that fashion due to gossip - find someone else. Reaching out for help is just what you need. You may also have that anger stage that I spoke about later. To be honest - I think I needed it. That rage would have imploded on me more, and I don't think I could have moved on to where I'm at if not for that experience. I think God used it as a tool to show me its part of the journey, but you don't want to live there. Unlike abusers I had peace once it was released. Some tell me it was rightoues anger. I don't know, but I know it was something that helped me move on. Those safe people helped me keep things in check.

Speaking of the experiences of domestic violence within the church in forms of verbal abuse, physical abuse and emotional abuse and your faith isn't gossip. It could help others move on if you do this with the right intent. I know I won't stay silent ever again.

Blessings.