Is this the model of manhood?

What is it about decision making that makes people so insecure?

 

Recently on Equality Central there was a discussion about a men’s conference in which part of the focus was the outright contempt for feminism.  The author mentioned that the speaker, Voddie Baucham had geared up this popular target of contempt to the point that SOME men actually acted out against it.  (Or did they actually act out what Voddie was preaching?) Due to the fact it was a men’s conference, and it sounded like had a huge audience they also opened up the women’s bathrooms for breaks for the men in attendance.   Paul  Doshe, the blogger in question not only wrote online about had huge issues with the doctrine that was being taught, but the fact that some men felt the need to urinate all over the women’s restroom after hearing about the dreaded ‘man haters’.  We are not talking normal misses that happen – especially with older men – but puddles.  Keep in mind the author was speaking about his own personal observations. 

 

Unfortunately, Paul was asked to meet with some of the church leaders about his article on the conference.  It ended up resulting in a phone call to the pastor, and the author issued an apology for not submitting his views on the conference to that pastor prior to publication.   Paul also made the decision to remove his opinion piece, but at that point I had already saved a copy for today’s discussion and have preserved it online.  Personally?  We don’t need a pastor’s permission slip for opinions and personal observations.  When a pastor wants to play the ‘forgiveness’ game, and manipulate it in a way that you may question your salvation?  Its insecurity talking – not decision making.  It’s a common tactic.   The old:  You must ask my forgiveness for the offense, and I will forgive you (on my terms). 

 

The pastor missed the bigger picture.

 

The pastor would discuss the small part of Paul’s article speaking about the ‘puddles’, but refused to speak about the problematic distortions of doctrine Paul was taking issue with.   Paul mentioned the pastor forgave him after he asked for his forgiveness over the conflict of his opinion of the conference. 

 

The first thought I had was if this was a glowing review there would have been no phone call, no asking and receiving of forgiveness.  No permission slip needed. 

 

Church Image or Doctrine

 

Dr. Voddie Baucham spoke at the conference about culture wars – a popular topic – and yet it seems the culture of ‘church image’ never entered this pastor’s mind and heart.  The church and the conference had an image to uphold, and that sadly was first and foremost in this pastor’s mind.

 

The pride issue came to mind also, because it seems since this pastor made the author feel in some way the need to apologize for his observations.  The man’s overall take of the conference – and the bigger issues at hand – were not worth spending time on.   Yes, the thought of the author caving also crossed my mind.

 

Paul recently put up a final opinion piece in which he felt he did the right thing by removing his views, and how he feels ‘caving’ wasn’t the issue.  It does sound like he felt convicted to remove the original piece, but the way his addendum was replaced shortly after removal concerned me.  After some time dwelling on this I figured he placed addendum up before truly thinking it out completely and clearly.  Sigh – I can relate to that myself!

 

The actions of the pastor shows the contradictions that this doctrine pushes a person to conclude. 

 

We hear all the time on how people should approach men with a aspect of respect and honor.  I guess that part is only reserved for wives and children.  Men on Men doesn’t count.  I wonder if they asked themselves if Jesus would agree with that?!  Voddie stated in his sermon at the conference to model behavior for others, but again that must only be for ‘certain’ others.

 

Compassion towards Paul doesn’t seem to register with this pastor either.  Clearly, Paul’s doctrinal issues were more important than certain men acting in a immature way in the women’s bathroom.  The image of these men, the bathroom, the church, Voddie and the conference were much more important to the pastor.  Remember these types are the first to remind people that people allow their ‘emotions’ to run this lives, and are quick to remind you that ‘feelings’ in this sense are unreliable.  Is that only for women and children?  I mean the pastor that hosted the event’s emotions clearly overtook him.

 

The thought of the Shepherd leaving his flock to find the one lost sheep comes to mind. The pastor seems to be telling the world, ‘Hey!  We fed him didn’t we!”

 

It seems that not only do women have a hard time getting answers from these types, but men do also.  That is not surprising to me, but it seems to contradict their entire message of the conference they led.  Is this a good example of their Discipleship & Education?  I guess it wouldn’t be the first time a pastor held a conference of this type, but decided he didn’t need to heed the message of the conference his own church is marketing.  Pretty sad state of affairs.

 

It reminds of the dynamic that Al Miles speaks about when it comes to him speaking at churches about domestic violence.  He is invited all over the country to give presentations of domestic violence, but sadly it was the pastors of those churches that wouldn’t be in attendance.  He made a future policy that he would only lead the conference if they – the pastors of the church - agreed to be there.  Sounds like Voddie needs to do the same thing.

 

Voddie’s Culture Wars – Always a popular Topic!

 

Voddie had some good things to say, but he also had some rather far out opinions as well. 

 

For example, he would speak about how husbands and fathers need to truly be involved with family life.  They have to be more than ‘airport dads’.  An airport dad is a man that comes home from work, and sits on the sofa to watch television or read his paper.  Mom is running around pretty much doing everything else in life.  His paycheck is nearly his entire contribution to his family.  He states later that some men more identify themselves by their job titles.  He gave an example of how ‘work life’ had to take a back seat to his home life.  He then showed how most families do the opposite.  For instance, if work needs something family must take a second seat, and how it should be the opposite.

 

Whether it be mom or dad I will agree the above to be true.

 

Most of Voddie’s views on feminism are not based in fact.  He used Gloria Steinem as an example of a ‘man hater’, and later mentioned how women just a notch up the food change to the serpent in the Garden of Eden.  I doubt very much he watched the documentary of Gloria (click the link to watch it) – in her own words as it was called recently on HBO.  They showed clips from her past, and also more recent interviews.  They actually address the ‘man hater’ and ‘gender sameness’ junk we hear about all the time.  Sadly, it seems Dr. Baucham was misinformed in a number of areas.

 

There is a myth that we believe.
There is a myth that we promote, and this myth is that feminism grew because men stepped away from their roles.

Man stopped being who and what they were supposed to be, and so feminism grew as a result of that.  Folks that is so incredibly naïve!

Feminism is actually a a reaction to strong manhood. It's not a reaction to weak manhood. Feminism is rebellion against strong manhood.

The feminist movement did not….when you talk about modern feminist movement most people do not realize the feminist movement goes way back to the 1800s.  When you talk about the modern feminist movement you talk about people like Gloria Steinem and people like this from the 1960s.

BUT even then these people were not saying men are stepping up and being men. No! They are saying we hate men!

- statement from Voddie Baucham at the conference in question

 

I guess for some the cliché is true about if you repeat myths enough times its truth to some.  Strange practice coming from a Pastor I must say.  The Bible states how we are to love our enemies, and pray for them.  I don’t understand how this campaign of contempt against feminism can EVER come across as anything but contempt when they use generalizations, myths and dare I say lies against others.  When common sense is used actions speak louder than words, and I pray that most don’t model that behavior.  I will add that even if it WERE true, the contempt still would NOT be justified.

 

The mocking of men and women isn’t uplifting, and using that to shepherd others (which Voddie taught at the Conference) is far from encouraging.  YES, I did listen to his message to understand where Paul was coming from (i.e.: harsh aspects of the message). 

 

In one example, Dr. Baucham spoke about an example of man that came to him because he didn’t approve of his daughter's choice for a future spouse.   Dr. Baucham asked him what his daughter said when he spoke to her about this, and the man replied that he and his daughter didn’t have much of a relationship.  You then got to hear about how this man expected Baucham to ‘fix this’ for him.    I doubt that is what the man said, but that is what the Dr. took from the conversation.  Dr. Baucham continued on what he must have felt was a humorous rant about how this man was an awful father, and what the heck did he expect HIM to do about his circumstance.

Pastor I need your help!

Why?

Well because my daughter came back with a really really really bad candidate, and I have no idea what to do!

Well sit down and talk to your daughter.

I really don't have a relationship with my daughter.
So I was hoping that maybe you could - I don't know - maybe you as a minster 's could help?

Really what did you prepare your daughter to look for?

Yeah well we really didn't talk about that.

Okay, let me see if I get this right:
You don't have a relationship with your daughter.
You didn't prepare her for what to look for.
She came back with somebody you disapprove of, and now you want somebody else to fix the mess that you made!
In other words you just said to me:

Pastor I just planted in Apple tree in my backyard now apples are starting to grow on it. Can you help me with that?

(giggles)

You can't say amen you can only say OUCH!

(giggles)

-Transcript from  Voddie at conference

Ouch if Voddie Baucham feels this shows strong manhood! I hope his story was hot air, and he did offer the man more than what he mentioned.  He came to him for advice, and not a list of cut downs.  Jesus would have us be honest but showed compassion as well.  In a broken world this broken man needed something besides being the brunt of jokes for his presentation.

 

Dr. Baucham does very well with his presentation skills, but the message at times was far from edifying.   It creates a ‘us against them’ mentality.  Yes, the bible does say in Romans 12:2:

Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.

 

No offense but ridicule is of the world, and we see it all the time in books, articles, television, radio, politics, power struggles etc.  We can speak of broken people, and their broken relationships without being cruel about it.  Although he did have some good things to say he also came across as the school yard bully in other ways.    This culture loves to use ridicule, and seeing a pastor use it also takes so much away from anything good he may want to convey.  Its not a hard jump to mention NOT good modeling behavior.  He could do so much better.

 

Don’t be insecure in your decision making

 

The audios from the conference are online.   I have downloaded some of them so they don’t disappear online after a while as well.  I will post them soon.

 

The blogger Paul mentioned Romans 16:17

And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people's faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them.

 

God isn’t asking for the ‘us against them’ attitude from his people.  That does not show his love for this world, and for his creation.   Awful Fathers, Dreadful Feminists, men that leave puddles of urine in bathrooms for others to clean up, and YES even the pastor of the church and Dr. Bauchman himself are all sinners and in need of grace.  We would be nothing if it were not for Jesus.  The thought of that should humble us all.

 

Audio Programs like this conference tend to disappear due to insecurity.  Manipulating, and asking for a public apology from a blogger that is not warranted is as well.  The pastor from this church modeled that behavior for us – showing he is more concerned with image then he was about the hard edge of the teachings at the conference.  No, I don’t think that was what you (men who attended) should have gleamed from the conference.  Your not suppose to talk about that though, but most especially DON’T talk about the urine puddles.

 

Additional Articles I found regarding this conference:

 

Complementarianism, Scapegoats, and New Meaning to the “Fountain” at Bellefontaine

Pulpit condoning

Complementarian men symbolically urinate on women

Complementarian men symbolically urinate on women

Do Right BJU! The Principals of Protest!

I’m sure some of you remember the backlash of the Tina Anderson story.  The Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches all felt they were being branded for actions taken by the few.  Yes, you tend to hear these type of responses anytime something ugly like this happens. Unfortunately, the victims tend to be lost in most of it.

 

Sadly, Bob Jones University is showing that Chuck Phelp’s response ISN’T all that uncommon.  Sounds like the ‘few’ are the ones that can see the failings in this case.

 

On a very optimistic note, there have been students from the Bob Jones University that have stepped up to call out issues that arose that made them feel uncomfortable and unsafe.  Chuck Phelps as you may remember feels that he is the true victim in what happened.  He has taken credit for the conviction of Ernie Willis, and yet still feels justified on leaving his website up calling Tina Anderson a liar.  How can you take credit for a conviction of the rapist, and then call the rape victim a liar?  Could be one of the principals that make the students uneasy. 

 

When the students found that Chuck Phelps was on the board of BJU a protest was started.  They had a petition online for signatures, and started a Facebook page called, ‘Do Right BJU’.  BJU is a very strict school, and the students were instructed to step down (stop creation of page) and remove the Facebook page.  They have not done so at this point, and frankly it would be wise if the university addressed their concerns.  Most knew when the students were asked to stop the chances of expulsion were highly likely.   BJU also issued a statement that has been removed, but people uploaded screenshots online.

 

Sadly, the university had taken the stand in agreement with Chuck Phelps that he was indeed the victim in the Tina Anderson Case.   They decided to stand behind their man, and if you read the statement itself?  Its drips with manipulation. 

Do we understand insensitivity?

Do we understand insensitivity?

The Pearls have been in the news again.  Michael Pearl spoke on a program called Cooper Anderson's Show today.  It was a followed up from a program called UnGodly Discipline on CNN.

I’m NOT going to talk about spanking.  I want to write today about the insensitivity towards tragic life altering events. 

The Pearls have a book called, How to Train Up a Child.  There have been children killed by the parents that claim they follow the Pearls teachings.  When the first child died I think most people were a bit take back by the Pearl’s reaction.  They pretty much blew it off as nonsense.  Now we have other children that died, and I wrote about one named Lydia The Girl The Pearls Laughed At.

We are talking about a death of a child.  The parents are arrested.  We have siblings that are mourning not only at the loss of their parents, but their sister as well.  You have community, friends, neighbors – a whole network of Lydia’s life reeling over what happened.

The parents took teachings on discipline out of book, and took it to a level that killed their child.  No, Debi and Michael Pearl did not kill those children directly.  Their reaction to their deaths though were immoral. 

They speak of the bible, but showed no grace, humility, or compassion towards what happened.  They were to busy getting defensive over their book being brought up as a possible tool that the murderous parents used.

My five grown children are laughing at your foolish, uninformed criticism of God’s method of child training, for their kids—my 17 grandkids—are laughing . . . because that is what they do most of the time.

People all around the world, in places like Russia, China, Germany, New Zealand, Guatemala, Peru, Africa, and fifty other countries are laughing with joy because after applying the Biblical principles found in our books they finally have happy and obedient children.

Even my chickens are laughing . . . well, actually it more like cackling, because they just laid another organic egg for my breakfast and they know that it was that same piece of ¼ inch plastic supply line that trained the dogs not to eat chicken....

You can read the rest of it on Lydia’s page I linked above. 

Does this not come across as insensitive to anyone else out there?

Elizabeth Ester was on the talk show with Mr. Pearl today.  I noticed his demeanor wasn’t the same as the letters he leaves on his website.  He didn’t preach to everyone about how they were foolish, uninformed people that didn’t understand God’s method of child training.  He didn’t laugh at them because they will not have happy and obedient children.

The insensitivity towards the children is what helped the Pearls gain this attention.  I guess they are reaping what they sowed.  People are not going to look at you and your teachings with compassion when you mock, ridicule, and ‘laugh’ at dead children.  Its common sense.

Most people can show some compassion towards a child that was beat to death, and its telling when a Christian Ministry (that is what they call it) can not.

No.  It seems his followers are the ones feeling mocked today.  The Christian Post wrote a story on, “To Spank or Not To Spank”.

But today, the topic of biblical spanking has reached such a peak in debate and conversation that it is time for Christians to make the case as to what biblical training is and is not. Approximately 95 percent of all liberal media outlets, the same media outlets that are driven to squash Christianity and our current conservative value system, is also "spinning" perspectives on physically disciplining and training our children. If we do not let our voices be heard and truth be told, this, along with basic religious freedoms, will be taken away from us as we are seeing at an alarming rate.
-------------

As the Rev. Michael Pearl accurately writes on his website No Greater Joy Ministries: “The people who condemn biblical chastisement do not believe the Bible. They judge others by their own experience. The only time they have ‘hit’ their children, or been tempted to, was when they were angry. They assume that when we spank it is with the same hostility they have felt.”

As I mentioned they are so busy being defensive they totally miss the point.  They accused people of ‘spinning’ perspectives, and yet don’t you just love the spin Rev. Michael Pearl used.  He wrongly assumes that those that are upset are the ones that hit when angry.  How they seem to be projecting onto him.

In the article they get close, but were given no cigar as the saying goes:

And again Pearl states, “Opponents of the biblical use of the rod support their position by pointing to its occasional misuse. It is our contention that all authority is misused from time to time, but that misuse does not negate the legitimacy of the office itself, rather of the ones who abuse their sacred authority. When the courts are unjust or dishonest, we do not abolish the office of judge or the administration of law. When a law enforcement agent is corrupted by money or a desire for power, we do not fire all the policemen. When a president of the United States is hedonistic and sells favors, enriching himself through crooked deals, we do not resort to a dictatorship. When state social workers molest children and abuse them, we do not stop all social work.”

There is no doubt that the parents misused their position, and if they read the cases it went further that the ‘biblical rod’.  Those children didn’t laugh like your family and your chickens Rev. Pearl. 

The misuse of the position of authority IS the key here!  Everyone can agree on that!    Sadly, the Pearls and their followers are more upset about their book being discussed by their own reaction.  The fallout is of their own making.

Its not the liberal media, or the secular doctors, studies or courts. Its was your cold hearted response.   There is NO DOUBT the book and the Pearl’s ministry would have come up for discussion because of its controversial nature.    Debi and Michael Pearl’s  response was like gas on a fire – since they love visuals.

It should have been a time to ask others to pray for the family, and then use that moment as a ‘teaching moment’.  It would have been very appropriate to remind parents about misuse of the rod.  The ramblings about the abolishing the office of Judge when you find one bad one?  It’s a silly example, and also a spin. 

Just a side note here, but if you look at the article today?  They quoted a couple from an organization called Christian Discipline.  Ahem!  I don’t think that is the same kind of discipline  that you think it is Mr. PEARL!  They speak about ‘spanking wives’ on that site!  Don’t we even research our sources?


Debi and Michael have horrible responses, and it shows their wisdom is in serious question when it comes to these types of things.  It highly offensive, and you bring on the trouble and heartache by your own words and actions. 

Maybe a hire a professional to deal with responses.    Your spin comes off as insensitive, and your followers coming to your defense?  It makes things worse.  Thankfully, their response towards Hanna was better.  They still had to throw in their digs at the end, but it came across as a bit more compassionate.

Here is a quote from Elizabeth Esther:

Additionally, if the Pearls had shown a little humility, grace and genuine sorrow about these tragedies, then the line of questioning wouldn’t be as tough. But instead, the Pearls have repeatedly–and brashly–defended their views, refused to modify their harsh recommendations all while calling their critics “uninformed” and accusing bloggers like myself of inflammatory rhetoric.

Lastly, here is clip from one of the news programs.  I think they were respectful towards Debi and Michael Pearl.

To give an account and to intercede for their wives

Shirley Taylor over at Baptist women for equality had an article this morning about Advent. The article title did make me sigh a little bit!

 

Should women be looking for the Christ child, or a husband?

 

Towards the end of her article she had mentioned Cindy Kunsman, and educational program that Cindy had presented in 2008.

Cindy Kunsman can tell you that Baptist seminarians believe it. At a conference in 2008 at a Southern Baptist Seminary, Cindy says “Several young men asked how it was that I believed that they would not stand before God…to give an account and to intercede for their wives….These (young men) were Baptist Seminary Students.” (ethicsdaily.com April 2008).

Cindy’s video is very interesting, and I learned a lot!  She hits on all kinds of areas of beliefs regarding Patriarchy.  When she mentioned some teachings from representatives from the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, Federal Vision,  and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary?  They pretty much threw a hissie fit, and claimed she offered ‘misinformed accusations’.  Did they pony up with the evidence, or actually point out the errors in question?  Nope.  Funny how that happens isn’t it?

 

This belief about how husbands are accountable for their wives and children's actions before God is crazy talk! We are asked to love and care for another. We aren’t asked to be held responsible to intercede, give an account or be responsible for another in this fashion.

 

When you face God its between you and him. It won’t matter if you were a popular pastor, head of the seminary, dutiful wife, wonderful mother, etc. He isn’t interested your office or role. Gender doesn’t give you leverage!

 

When I read things like this I truly feel badly for the men and women that are taught these things. It’s a very heavy burden if it were true for them, and being that humans can be selfish? No humanly incentive for women to do their best. It’s a teaching that states we don’t need Jesus, but a good husband to give account and intercede for us.

 

No offense, but they need to find another seminary.