Is this the model of manhood?

What is it about decision making that makes people so insecure?

 

Recently on Equality Central there was a discussion about a men’s conference in which part of the focus was the outright contempt for feminism.  The author mentioned that the speaker, Voddie Baucham had geared up this popular target of contempt to the point that SOME men actually acted out against it.  (Or did they actually act out what Voddie was preaching?) Due to the fact it was a men’s conference, and it sounded like had a huge audience they also opened up the women’s bathrooms for breaks for the men in attendance.   Paul  Doshe, the blogger in question not only wrote online about had huge issues with the doctrine that was being taught, but the fact that some men felt the need to urinate all over the women’s restroom after hearing about the dreaded ‘man haters’.  We are not talking normal misses that happen – especially with older men – but puddles.  Keep in mind the author was speaking about his own personal observations. 

 

Unfortunately, Paul was asked to meet with some of the church leaders about his article on the conference.  It ended up resulting in a phone call to the pastor, and the author issued an apology for not submitting his views on the conference to that pastor prior to publication.   Paul also made the decision to remove his opinion piece, but at that point I had already saved a copy for today’s discussion and have preserved it online.  Personally?  We don’t need a pastor’s permission slip for opinions and personal observations.  When a pastor wants to play the ‘forgiveness’ game, and manipulate it in a way that you may question your salvation?  Its insecurity talking – not decision making.  It’s a common tactic.   The old:  You must ask my forgiveness for the offense, and I will forgive you (on my terms). 

 

The pastor missed the bigger picture.

 

The pastor would discuss the small part of Paul’s article speaking about the ‘puddles’, but refused to speak about the problematic distortions of doctrine Paul was taking issue with.   Paul mentioned the pastor forgave him after he asked for his forgiveness over the conflict of his opinion of the conference. 

 

The first thought I had was if this was a glowing review there would have been no phone call, no asking and receiving of forgiveness.  No permission slip needed. 

 

Church Image or Doctrine

 

Dr. Voddie Baucham spoke at the conference about culture wars – a popular topic – and yet it seems the culture of ‘church image’ never entered this pastor’s mind and heart.  The church and the conference had an image to uphold, and that sadly was first and foremost in this pastor’s mind.

 

The pride issue came to mind also, because it seems since this pastor made the author feel in some way the need to apologize for his observations.  The man’s overall take of the conference – and the bigger issues at hand – were not worth spending time on.   Yes, the thought of the author caving also crossed my mind.

 

Paul recently put up a final opinion piece in which he felt he did the right thing by removing his views, and how he feels ‘caving’ wasn’t the issue.  It does sound like he felt convicted to remove the original piece, but the way his addendum was replaced shortly after removal concerned me.  After some time dwelling on this I figured he placed addendum up before truly thinking it out completely and clearly.  Sigh – I can relate to that myself!

 

The actions of the pastor shows the contradictions that this doctrine pushes a person to conclude. 

 

We hear all the time on how people should approach men with a aspect of respect and honor.  I guess that part is only reserved for wives and children.  Men on Men doesn’t count.  I wonder if they asked themselves if Jesus would agree with that?!  Voddie stated in his sermon at the conference to model behavior for others, but again that must only be for ‘certain’ others.

 

Compassion towards Paul doesn’t seem to register with this pastor either.  Clearly, Paul’s doctrinal issues were more important than certain men acting in a immature way in the women’s bathroom.  The image of these men, the bathroom, the church, Voddie and the conference were much more important to the pastor.  Remember these types are the first to remind people that people allow their ‘emotions’ to run this lives, and are quick to remind you that ‘feelings’ in this sense are unreliable.  Is that only for women and children?  I mean the pastor that hosted the event’s emotions clearly overtook him.

 

The thought of the Shepherd leaving his flock to find the one lost sheep comes to mind. The pastor seems to be telling the world, ‘Hey!  We fed him didn’t we!”

 

It seems that not only do women have a hard time getting answers from these types, but men do also.  That is not surprising to me, but it seems to contradict their entire message of the conference they led.  Is this a good example of their Discipleship & Education?  I guess it wouldn’t be the first time a pastor held a conference of this type, but decided he didn’t need to heed the message of the conference his own church is marketing.  Pretty sad state of affairs.

 

It reminds of the dynamic that Al Miles speaks about when it comes to him speaking at churches about domestic violence.  He is invited all over the country to give presentations of domestic violence, but sadly it was the pastors of those churches that wouldn’t be in attendance.  He made a future policy that he would only lead the conference if they – the pastors of the church - agreed to be there.  Sounds like Voddie needs to do the same thing.

 

Voddie’s Culture Wars – Always a popular Topic!

 

Voddie had some good things to say, but he also had some rather far out opinions as well. 

 

For example, he would speak about how husbands and fathers need to truly be involved with family life.  They have to be more than ‘airport dads’.  An airport dad is a man that comes home from work, and sits on the sofa to watch television or read his paper.  Mom is running around pretty much doing everything else in life.  His paycheck is nearly his entire contribution to his family.  He states later that some men more identify themselves by their job titles.  He gave an example of how ‘work life’ had to take a back seat to his home life.  He then showed how most families do the opposite.  For instance, if work needs something family must take a second seat, and how it should be the opposite.

 

Whether it be mom or dad I will agree the above to be true.

 

Most of Voddie’s views on feminism are not based in fact.  He used Gloria Steinem as an example of a ‘man hater’, and later mentioned how women just a notch up the food change to the serpent in the Garden of Eden.  I doubt very much he watched the documentary of Gloria (click the link to watch it) – in her own words as it was called recently on HBO.  They showed clips from her past, and also more recent interviews.  They actually address the ‘man hater’ and ‘gender sameness’ junk we hear about all the time.  Sadly, it seems Dr. Baucham was misinformed in a number of areas.

 

There is a myth that we believe.
There is a myth that we promote, and this myth is that feminism grew because men stepped away from their roles.

Man stopped being who and what they were supposed to be, and so feminism grew as a result of that.  Folks that is so incredibly naïve!

Feminism is actually a a reaction to strong manhood. It's not a reaction to weak manhood. Feminism is rebellion against strong manhood.

The feminist movement did not….when you talk about modern feminist movement most people do not realize the feminist movement goes way back to the 1800s.  When you talk about the modern feminist movement you talk about people like Gloria Steinem and people like this from the 1960s.

BUT even then these people were not saying men are stepping up and being men. No! They are saying we hate men!

- statement from Voddie Baucham at the conference in question

 

I guess for some the cliché is true about if you repeat myths enough times its truth to some.  Strange practice coming from a Pastor I must say.  The Bible states how we are to love our enemies, and pray for them.  I don’t understand how this campaign of contempt against feminism can EVER come across as anything but contempt when they use generalizations, myths and dare I say lies against others.  When common sense is used actions speak louder than words, and I pray that most don’t model that behavior.  I will add that even if it WERE true, the contempt still would NOT be justified.

 

The mocking of men and women isn’t uplifting, and using that to shepherd others (which Voddie taught at the Conference) is far from encouraging.  YES, I did listen to his message to understand where Paul was coming from (i.e.: harsh aspects of the message). 

 

In one example, Dr. Baucham spoke about an example of man that came to him because he didn’t approve of his daughter's choice for a future spouse.   Dr. Baucham asked him what his daughter said when he spoke to her about this, and the man replied that he and his daughter didn’t have much of a relationship.  You then got to hear about how this man expected Baucham to ‘fix this’ for him.    I doubt that is what the man said, but that is what the Dr. took from the conversation.  Dr. Baucham continued on what he must have felt was a humorous rant about how this man was an awful father, and what the heck did he expect HIM to do about his circumstance.

Pastor I need your help!

Why?

Well because my daughter came back with a really really really bad candidate, and I have no idea what to do!

Well sit down and talk to your daughter.

I really don't have a relationship with my daughter.
So I was hoping that maybe you could - I don't know - maybe you as a minster 's could help?

Really what did you prepare your daughter to look for?

Yeah well we really didn't talk about that.

Okay, let me see if I get this right:
You don't have a relationship with your daughter.
You didn't prepare her for what to look for.
She came back with somebody you disapprove of, and now you want somebody else to fix the mess that you made!
In other words you just said to me:

Pastor I just planted in Apple tree in my backyard now apples are starting to grow on it. Can you help me with that?

(giggles)

You can't say amen you can only say OUCH!

(giggles)

-Transcript from  Voddie at conference

Ouch if Voddie Baucham feels this shows strong manhood! I hope his story was hot air, and he did offer the man more than what he mentioned.  He came to him for advice, and not a list of cut downs.  Jesus would have us be honest but showed compassion as well.  In a broken world this broken man needed something besides being the brunt of jokes for his presentation.

 

Dr. Baucham does very well with his presentation skills, but the message at times was far from edifying.   It creates a ‘us against them’ mentality.  Yes, the bible does say in Romans 12:2:

Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.

 

No offense but ridicule is of the world, and we see it all the time in books, articles, television, radio, politics, power struggles etc.  We can speak of broken people, and their broken relationships without being cruel about it.  Although he did have some good things to say he also came across as the school yard bully in other ways.    This culture loves to use ridicule, and seeing a pastor use it also takes so much away from anything good he may want to convey.  Its not a hard jump to mention NOT good modeling behavior.  He could do so much better.

 

Don’t be insecure in your decision making

 

The audios from the conference are online.   I have downloaded some of them so they don’t disappear online after a while as well.  I will post them soon.

 

The blogger Paul mentioned Romans 16:17

And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people's faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them.

 

God isn’t asking for the ‘us against them’ attitude from his people.  That does not show his love for this world, and for his creation.   Awful Fathers, Dreadful Feminists, men that leave puddles of urine in bathrooms for others to clean up, and YES even the pastor of the church and Dr. Bauchman himself are all sinners and in need of grace.  We would be nothing if it were not for Jesus.  The thought of that should humble us all.

 

Audio Programs like this conference tend to disappear due to insecurity.  Manipulating, and asking for a public apology from a blogger that is not warranted is as well.  The pastor from this church modeled that behavior for us – showing he is more concerned with image then he was about the hard edge of the teachings at the conference.  No, I don’t think that was what you (men who attended) should have gleamed from the conference.  Your not suppose to talk about that though, but most especially DON’T talk about the urine puddles.

 

Additional Articles I found regarding this conference:

 

Complementarianism, Scapegoats, and New Meaning to the “Fountain” at Bellefontaine

Pulpit condoning

Complementarian men symbolically urinate on women

Complementarian men symbolically urinate on women

Churches Becoming Shelters for Domestic Violence Victims

I saw this story recently, and it was based in Hawaii, and I have to admit my jaded side came out. Churches Could Soon Become Shelters for Domestic Violence Victims?  

'Don't count on it' was my first reaction. I realize that isn't the best reaction, but it was coming from my GUT and experience.

KHON out of Hawaii mentioned due to huge budget cuts, etc they are looking to the church to help with this issue. They feel that it may cut close to the separation of church and state, but many other programs such as homelessness and food pantries are supplemented by churches. They hope the church will stand up and be counted, because its a HUGE need!

I hope they do to, but I wouldn't place any bets on it! You may get a couple of churches that did bother to educate themselves, but that's all you will get. A VERY small number!

Shelters need partnerships with churches

When I say this I normally get some examples of horror stories of their experiences with domestic violence shelters.


Before anyone gets upset with me lets keep in mind that not all shelters are alike. Some may have volunteers that are MORE trained than others, and some have alot of what I call newbies to the field. I wouldn't give up on a shelter after just one phone call in most cases. Chances are you may have had ONE person that wasn't your cup of tea. Personality conflicts and uneducated volunteers/staff do happen, but that doesn't always make up the whole organization. Call back and try to speak to someone else!  Be daring and ask for a manager!

Families that are dealing with domestic violence need spiritual help along with help in the realm of safety. We need churches that don't get paranoid when right away about a certain divorce in the future, and ONLY set their eyes to quickly on restoration and reconciliation. They need to stick with the 'safety' portion for now. Shelter's ask for help from churches all the time, and are ignored. That's plain sinful in my eyes!

BUT IS SECULAR! (shutter)

Churches, pastors at times have a really hard time thinking of how a 'secular' domestic violence shelter can help them. Goodness knows I have heard all kinds of opinions! The one I tend to hear the most? Its full of feminists that tell you to tear apart your family! That's not the purpose of the shelter! The first purpose is safety.  Divorce, separation or staying together must always be the decision of the victim.  These shelters aren't there to tell people how to run their lifes.

They can give resources, but REMEMBER its not their job to tell people what to do. Part of healing is learning proper decision making skills, and its a way of getting your sense of self respect back! You are the only one that knows your life well enough to make the decisions that work.

Most shelters know if you talk someone into leaving - since they are in a emotional state - the chances of them coming down off that emotional state and returning to danger is likely to happen. That decision for safety can't come from the workers! It has to come from the victim!

If you look at it from that common sense stand it shows how that myth that is spread around in churches is just that...a MYTH!

Lack of support from churches HAS to change!

My shelter was located in a fairly large town of a couple hundred thousand people, and it has a TON of churches there! Our shelter helps a huge area, and that means it serves than its own local community its located in.

They started to market their services and education to build relationships, so pastors and their churches had the tools to deal with domestic violence. The shelter taking on the safety portion, and the church taking the spirituality portion.

They not only wanted to help, but education from churches as well.

They needed a game plan on HOW they could work together, and all the rest of the dynamics that come into play during a crisis. Most shelters are open to this. They wanted plans they could both work with. This relationship needed to be built, because neither side could do justice by themselves. No one can be experts in everything...NOR should be!

You know how many faith based organizations - that included not just Christians responded? I think it was three. THREE!

The shelter didn't give up, and they are still there letting churches know they are ready when they are. They had a few other churches that were really scared about what they were dealing with (domestic violence within their church), and just couldn't get past that fear of working outside the church. They don't know what happened to those women, men and children.  They wanted that cycle to stop, and this was the purpose of this relationship.

I will say they at least have a handful of what I call 'safe' churches to send people to that need their faith based advice and guidance. To me? That's disgusting...only a few.

Domestic Violence - What every Pastor needs to know!


I have to wonder if most pastors truly pay attention to the title of that book. If they do and see its about domestic violence and the church? I wonder how many more place it back on the shelf and keep looking.

Al Miles is a Pastor that speaks out and tries to educate pastors about domestic violence. He will attend conferences to speak on this subject, and guess who is normally missing in the audience? You GOT IT! The Pastors the church that invited him!

He speaks in the book about how he is invited to speak at churches, but again WHO do you think was missing on the days he was there to speak? YOU GOT IT.... The PASTORS!

He started a policy that he would agree to speakat their church only IF the pastors would agree to attend the conferences as well.  What would happen in the past that made him change this policy?  They would be there at the start, but would disappear shortly afterwards. They had 'emergencies' ALWAYS! The stranger part of this? No emergencies would happen when he was asked to speak on other topics. Hmmmm. Mysterious huh?

He was asked to come to Wisconsin to speak one year, and the coordinators of the event sent out 1,200 invitations to clergy...and personally followed UP!  When they day came of the event he asked the clergy to stand up to identify themselves.  Out of 135 people that were present less than 10 were pastors.  

This is what motivated him to start to write this book about domestic violence. His outrage over the avoidance of this issue.

He wanted to know WHY that was! It would have to start he assumed with interviews, and he figured they would ask him about his qualification and position on domestic violence. That would make sense to most.  Sadly most were more concerned with his position on roles, doctrinal issues, denomination background, authority of scripture, divorce, homosexuality, how long has he been born again. No one seems to care about the issues surrounding his views on domestic violence within the church. Can we say pigeon hole?!

NOT in MY CHURCH!


I read a number of faith boards online, and also do alot of reading within the faith realm outside of the online world. I see alot of pastor comments about how this isn't happening within THEIR church! I was appalled at one clergy mentioning that they don't need to deal with 'social ills' of society. Others that mentioned they have encountered domestic violence decided they fixed the issue in their congregation toot sweet! As I watched them clear this off the discussion realm quickly you had to wonder how they did 'fix this' ya know? Most of the responses? Denial was the strongest I have seen anywhere.

Pastor Al Miles it seems had alot of the same during his interviews with 158 clergy. He even mentioned if you hand them resources, and make sure you follow up with them and insist on a meeting so they will at least READ the material! You got it ... he found most didn't take the time to look at the resources!

He was nicer in his book, but the attitude he speaks of is what frustrates me the most. Where are all the pastors? That is what everyone asks when education is offered, help is extended...and pastors never come. Something is seriously WRONG with this picture!

Clergy need to be a safe resource for those that are abused


Clergy need to read more of the stories and comments left on this blog. Most of the time clergy aren't a safe resource, and I have to tell you that was one of the biggest betrayals I experienced in my life.

We tell our children the church is a safe, and alot of people engulf themselves in this bubble. We will have fellowship, accountability, and those that pray and help support us in troubling times.

When it comes to emotional abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse...well domestic violence within the church in general pastors have failed their flocks! I felt lied to and as if I had been kicked in the stomach. They aren't safe most of the time, and I feel awful telling victims to be VERY careful if they choose to approach their church.



People tell us we should have seen the red flags.
We should have known better.
We should have been more careful with whom we married.
We made our bed and now we need to lay in it.

What I find very frustrating is how small the amount of men that are brave enough to face this issue without all the excuses. They ask survivors to be stronger, pray more, have more faith ... yet their faith within this realm is clearly more lacking than ours.

Fear and denial on their part is much stronger than what they ask of survivors. I hate to say this but it seems survivors faith seems to be stronger than the pastors that we ask help from.

We are asked to ENDURE the abuse, and we DO! We strive to be better spouses. We try to grasp on to the words, 'he will not give you more than you can bare' because the church is to cowardly to help. That's the truth!

The parroted scripture and the fact you can read on MOST church denomination statements on their stands on domestic violence...and how their pastors don't follow it shows that clearly most aren't safe! Its easy to write the statement out, but harder to follow up and actually DO IT! It pains me to say there is more lip service than action. Its truth that hurts deeply.

Churches Becoming Shelters for Domestic Violence Victims? I wonder if that miracle could happen in my lifetime.

Breaking the 'Holy Hush'

Breaking the 'Holy Hush 'Evangelicals find new resources to address domestic violence.
by Gail Martin

The U.S. Department of Justice estimates that about 1.5 million women in the United States are raped or physically assaulted by an intimate partner every year. Nearly one-third of American women report having experienced physical or sexual abuse by a husband or boyfriend at some point during their lives, according to the Commonwealth Fund’s 1998 Survey of Women’s Health.

Christians are no exception to these alarming statistics.

“The rate of abuse in Christian homes is exactly the same as in the general population,” says Catherine Clark Kroeger, co-founder of Peace and Safety in the Christian Home (PASCH). “If we could tear off the secrecy and then allow God’s grace to work, that would be the greatest gift.” Kroeger, an adjunct associate professor of classical and ministry studies at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, has written, co-written, or contributed to eight books about women and domestic violence from a Christian perspective.

She became aware of the need for a response to domestic violence that the evangelical community would hear and respect after she founded Christians for Biblical Equality, an organization rooted in evangelical circles that promotes an interpretation of the Bible supporting the fundamental equality of men and women of all ethnicities and all economic classes. She noticed that many women appeared more interested in the biblical roots of equality for the home than within church roles. In 1992, Kroeger and Denver Seminary professor of counseling James R. Beck held a symposium that led to their publication of Women, Abuse, and the Bible: How Scripture Can Be Used to Hurt or Heal.

Over the course of her involvement with the issue of domestic violence and the church’s response to it, Kroeger felt a growing sense of frustration at the church’s flawed approach to domestic violence counseling. She observed a disturbing degree of silence on the topic among church leaders. When clergy became involved in family counseling on domestic violence, they were more likely to side with the batterer, counsel reconciliation, chide the woman for attempting to leave the relationship, and consider the case closed.

In response, Kroeger has formed partnerships with other Christian experts and advocates in the field. At a meeting of religious leaders interested in domestic violence during the late 1990s, Kroeger met Nancy Nason-Clark, a professor of sociology at University of New Brunswick who researches the relationship between faith and domestic violence.

“More and more, my work began to explore how faith communities are responding to domestic violence,” says Nason-Clark. As she studied domestic violence from an academic perspective, she was constantly asked whether or not the incidence rates were different within the faith community.

“There are very few differences,” says Nason-Clark. Those that exist are not positive. Women of faith, says Nason-Clark, are less likely to leave an abusive relationship, more likely to look first to the church for counseling, and more likely to wait longer to take action than women outside the faith community.

NETWORKING CONNECTIONS with scattered clergy, researchers, and advocates convinced Kroeger and Nason-Clark that their efforts would yield better results if a network could be formed. The result was the creation of PASCH, which describes itself as “a coalition of internationally renowned Christian researchers, scholars, and theologians” who have come together to “increase peace and safety in the Christian home and in the world it serves by addressing and decreasing domestic and sexual abuse in those homes.”

PASCH held its first international conference in Orange County, Calif., in 2005. More than 200 attendees from around the world and from denominations ranging from Mennonite to Episcopal gathered at the “Beyond Abuse” conference for a weekend of resource sharing, networking opportunities, and presentations by advocates, survivors, and experts.

Al Miles, author of Domestic Violence: What Every Pastor Needs to Know and two other books on abuse, was one of the keynote speakers at the first PASCH conference.

According to Miles, until pioneers such as Catherine Clark Kroeger, no one had pointed out that “there is a faith-related connection; there are things we’re doing and not doing that contribute to [domestic abuse].” As a pastor, Miles felt comfortable with PASCH’s theology and language, and he knew their qualifications were sound. He also notes that the group’s evangelical approach helps address the way some conservatives may use distrust of theological liberalism as an excuse to avoid the topic of domestic violence.

“The issue of domestic violence is messy,” says Miles, who is an ordained minister in the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana) and is based in Hawaii. “It’s incredibly messy. It’s saying particularly when people are in my congregation that I as a pastor need to deal with this. We’ve known about it for a long time, even if we didn’t name it. The insidiousness is when you know the people and it’s right here. It’s amazing that we still tend to blame women for men’s behavior.”

Miles says that most pastors, when confronted with a situation of domestic violence, shy away because they lack training in the issue. According to Miles, pastors say things like, “I don’t know what to do; it’s messy; I wish it hadn’t been brought to my attention.” There is also denial. Miles describes the train of thought as “It couldn’t happen here because we’re so spiritual.” Others, he says, deny because their church is “too something”—too rich or too educated or too successful.

PASCH is committed to creating an “international prayer network” of concerned partners dedicated to the elimination of domestic and sexual abuse in Christian homes. PASCH hopes to accomplish this goal through facilitating collaboration among formerly isolated advocates and researchers, linking them to each other and enabling them to build on each other’s work. From this, PASCH hopes to encourage the creation of educational and training programs, as well as a steady flow of new resources from a distinctly evangelical perspective.

Kroeger is excited about the next steps for PASCH. One of the group’s newest ministries is the creation of a “shoe card”—a card small enough to be hidden under the insole of a woman’s shoe. The card is distributed in women’s restrooms, and includes a definition of what constitutes abuse, instructions, and the phone number for the National Domestic Violence Hotline.

“They’re absolutely flying,” says Kroeger, reporting that the cards disappeared so quickly from one church that organizers wondered whether they were being stolen.

In 2007, Kroeger hopes to host a training institute on Cape Cod to help clergy interact more successfully with social service resources. Both clergy and social service professionals have a long history of regarding each other with distrust. Many social service professionals report that when clergy are involved in a domestic abuse situation, they often make it worse by making the women feel pressured to remain within the relationship. Some members of the clergy are uneasy with social service professionals’ secular approach. Kroger hopes to ease that tension and help both sides gain more productive dialogue.

“A lot of it was about women and empowering women,” says Kroeger. She dreams of a continuum that reaches “from the steeple to the shelter,” and that finally removes the “holy hush” of silence and secrecy that Kroeger says supports and enables abuse.

“We want to pass the good news that the Bible provides a warrant for responsible conduct,” says Kroeger.

Gail Martin is a freelance writer in Charlotte, N.C. She directs The Refuge Project, a privately funded research and education project helping the faith community understand the long-term spiritual repercussions of abuse in order to become more accepting of and welcoming to adult survivors.