Recently on Equality Central there was a discussion about a men’s conference in which part of the focus was the outright contempt for feminism. The author mentioned that the speaker, Voddie Baucham had geared up this popular target of contempt to the point that SOME men actually acted out against it. (Or did they actually act out what Voddie was preaching?) Due to the fact it was a men’s conference, and it sounded like had a huge audience they also opened up the women’s bathrooms for breaks for the men in attendance. Paul Doshe, the blogger in question not only wrote online about had huge issues with the doctrine that was being taught, but the fact that some men felt the need to urinate all over the women’s restroom after hearing about the dreaded ‘man haters’. We are not talking normal misses that happen – especially with older men – but puddles. Keep in mind the author was speaking about his own personal observations.
Unfortunately, Paul was asked to meet with some of the church leaders about his article on the conference. It ended up resulting in a phone call to the pastor, and the author issued an apology for not submitting his views on the conference to that pastor prior to publication. Paul also made the decision to remove his opinion piece, but at that point I had already saved a copy for today’s discussion and have preserved it online. Personally? We don’t need a pastor’s permission slip for opinions and personal observations. When a pastor wants to play the ‘forgiveness’ game, and manipulate it in a way that you may question your salvation? Its insecurity talking – not decision making. It’s a common tactic. The old: You must ask my forgiveness for the offense, and I will forgive you (on my terms).
The pastor missed the bigger picture.
The pastor would discuss the small part of Paul’s article speaking about the ‘puddles’, but refused to speak about the problematic distortions of doctrine Paul was taking issue with. Paul mentioned the pastor forgave him after he asked for his forgiveness over the conflict of his opinion of the conference.
The first thought I had was if this was a glowing review there would have been no phone call, no asking and receiving of forgiveness. No permission slip needed.
Church Image or Doctrine
The pride issue came to mind also, because it seems since this pastor made the author feel in some way the need to apologize for his observations. The man’s overall take of the conference – and the bigger issues at hand – were not worth spending time on. Yes, the thought of the author caving also crossed my mind.
Paul recently put up a final opinion piece in which he felt he did the right thing by removing his views, and how he feels ‘caving’ wasn’t the issue. It does sound like he felt convicted to remove the original piece, but the way his addendum was replaced shortly after removal concerned me. After some time dwelling on this I figured he placed addendum up before truly thinking it out completely and clearly. Sigh – I can relate to that myself!
The actions of the pastor shows the contradictions that this doctrine pushes a person to conclude.
We hear all the time on how people should approach men with a aspect of respect and honor. I guess that part is only reserved for wives and children. Men on Men doesn’t count. I wonder if they asked themselves if Jesus would agree with that?! Voddie stated in his sermon at the conference to model behavior for others, but again that must only be for ‘certain’ others.
Compassion towards Paul doesn’t seem to register with this pastor either. Clearly, Paul’s doctrinal issues were more important than certain men acting in a immature way in the women’s bathroom. The image of these men, the bathroom, the church, Voddie and the conference were much more important to the pastor. Remember these types are the first to remind people that people allow their ‘emotions’ to run this lives, and are quick to remind you that ‘feelings’ in this sense are unreliable. Is that only for women and children? I mean the pastor that hosted the event’s emotions clearly overtook him.
The thought of the Shepherd leaving his flock to find the one lost sheep comes to mind. The pastor seems to be telling the world, ‘Hey! We fed him didn’t we!”
It seems that not only do women have a hard time getting answers from these types, but men do also. That is not surprising to me, but it seems to contradict their entire message of the conference they led. Is this a good example of their Discipleship & Education? I guess it wouldn’t be the first time a pastor held a conference of this type, but decided he didn’t need to heed the message of the conference his own church is marketing. Pretty sad state of affairs.
It reminds of the dynamic that Al Miles speaks about when it comes to him speaking at churches about domestic violence. He is invited all over the country to give presentations of domestic violence, but sadly it was the pastors of those churches that wouldn’t be in attendance. He made a future policy that he would only lead the conference if they – the pastors of the church - agreed to be there. Sounds like Voddie needs to do the same thing.
Voddie’s Culture Wars – Always a popular Topic!
For example, he would speak about how husbands and fathers need to truly be involved with family life. They have to be more than ‘airport dads’. An airport dad is a man that comes home from work, and sits on the sofa to watch television or read his paper. Mom is running around pretty much doing everything else in life. His paycheck is nearly his entire contribution to his family. He states later that some men more identify themselves by their job titles. He gave an example of how ‘work life’ had to take a back seat to his home life. He then showed how most families do the opposite. For instance, if work needs something family must take a second seat, and how it should be the opposite.
Whether it be mom or dad I will agree the above to be true.
Most of Voddie’s views on feminism are not based in fact. He used Gloria Steinem as an example of a ‘man hater’, and later mentioned how women just a notch up the food change to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. I doubt very much he watched the documentary of Gloria (click the link to watch it) – in her own words as it was called recently on HBO. They showed clips from her past, and also more recent interviews. They actually address the ‘man hater’ and ‘gender sameness’ junk we hear about all the time. Sadly, it seems Dr. Baucham was misinformed in a number of areas.
There is a myth that we believe.
There is a myth that we promote, and this myth is that feminism grew because men stepped away from their roles.Man stopped being who and what they were supposed to be, and so feminism grew as a result of that. Folks that is so incredibly naïve!
Feminism is actually a a reaction to strong manhood. It's not a reaction to weak manhood. Feminism is rebellion against strong manhood.
The feminist movement did not….when you talk about modern feminist movement most people do not realize the feminist movement goes way back to the 1800s. When you talk about the modern feminist movement you talk about people like Gloria Steinem and people like this from the 1960s.
BUT even then these people were not saying men are stepping up and being men. No! They are saying we hate men!
- statement from Voddie Baucham at the conference in question
I guess for some the cliché is true about if you repeat myths enough times its truth to some. Strange practice coming from a Pastor I must say. The Bible states how we are to love our enemies, and pray for them. I don’t understand how this campaign of contempt against feminism can EVER come across as anything but contempt when they use generalizations, myths and dare I say lies against others. When common sense is used actions speak louder than words, and I pray that most don’t model that behavior. I will add that even if it WERE true, the contempt still would NOT be justified.
The mocking of men and women isn’t uplifting, and using that to shepherd others (which Voddie taught at the Conference) is far from encouraging. YES, I did listen to his message to understand where Paul was coming from (i.e.: harsh aspects of the message).
In one example, Dr. Baucham spoke about an example of man that came to him because he didn’t approve of his daughter's choice for a future spouse. Dr. Baucham asked him what his daughter said when he spoke to her about this, and the man replied that he and his daughter didn’t have much of a relationship. You then got to hear about how this man expected Baucham to ‘fix this’ for him. I doubt that is what the man said, but that is what the Dr. took from the conversation. Dr. Baucham continued on what he must have felt was a humorous rant about how this man was an awful father, and what the heck did he expect HIM to do about his circumstance.
Pastor I need your help!
Why?
Well because my daughter came back with a really really really bad candidate, and I have no idea what to do!
Well sit down and talk to your daughter.
I really don't have a relationship with my daughter.
So I was hoping that maybe you could - I don't know - maybe you as a minster 's could help?
Really what did you prepare your daughter to look for?
Yeah well we really didn't talk about that.
Okay, let me see if I get this right:
You don't have a relationship with your daughter.
You didn't prepare her for what to look for.
She came back with somebody you disapprove of, and now you want somebody else to fix the mess that you made!
In other words you just said to me:Pastor I just planted in Apple tree in my backyard now apples are starting to grow on it. Can you help me with that?
(giggles)
You can't say amen you can only say OUCH!(giggles)
-Transcript from Voddie at conference
Ouch if Voddie Baucham feels this shows strong manhood! I hope his story was hot air, and he did offer the man more than what he mentioned. He came to him for advice, and not a list of cut downs. Jesus would have us be honest but showed compassion as well. In a broken world this broken man needed something besides being the brunt of jokes for his presentation.
Dr. Baucham does very well with his presentation skills, but the message at times was far from edifying. It creates a ‘us against them’ mentality. Yes, the bible does say in Romans 12:2:
Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.
No offense but ridicule is of the world, and we see it all the time in books, articles, television, radio, politics, power struggles etc. We can speak of broken people, and their broken relationships without being cruel about it. Although he did have some good things to say he also came across as the school yard bully in other ways. This culture loves to use ridicule, and seeing a pastor use it also takes so much away from anything good he may want to convey. Its not a hard jump to mention NOT good modeling behavior. He could do so much better.
Don’t be insecure in your decision making
The audios from the conference are online. I have downloaded some of them so they don’t disappear online after a while as well. I will post them soon.
The blogger Paul mentioned Romans 16:17
And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people's faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them.
God isn’t asking for the ‘us against them’ attitude from his people. That does not show his love for this world, and for his creation. Awful Fathers, Dreadful Feminists, men that leave puddles of urine in bathrooms for others to clean up, and YES even the pastor of the church and Dr. Bauchman himself are all sinners and in need of grace. We would be nothing if it were not for Jesus. The thought of that should humble us all.
Audio Programs like this conference tend to disappear due to insecurity. Manipulating, and asking for a public apology from a blogger that is not warranted is as well. The pastor from this church modeled that behavior for us – showing he is more concerned with image then he was about the hard edge of the teachings at the conference. No, I don’t think that was what you (men who attended) should have gleamed from the conference. Your not suppose to talk about that though, but most especially DON’T talk about the urine puddles.
Additional Articles I found regarding this conference:
Complementarianism, Scapegoats, and New Meaning to the “Fountain” at Bellefontaine
Complementarian men symbolically urinate on women
Complementarian men symbolically urinate on women
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4 comments:
Good article. This all reminds me so much of the kind of church leadership I sat under in college. Nothing was ever the leader's fault, or the leader's responsibility. All the burdens were on the shoulders of the "flock." Anyone who had a problem with that was in "rebellion."
They always like to use the military as an example as well. Can you imagine the officer telling their Commanding Officer that its all the soldiers fault?
They would be the laughing stock.
Thank you for stopping by Kristen!
Thanks for the link to Gloria Steinem. I also always thought of her as a man-hater because she is always portrayed as such.
To be honest, I have not really met any man-hating radical feminists among the social workers and secular advocates for domestic violence victims. Yet, the first concern of any of my Christian friends (male or female) when I talk about supporting female victims of violence is that we don't turn into man-haters like THOSE radical feminists. The damage to victims and keeping them safe is not foremost on most people's minds.
I don't see myself as a radical feminist, and often have to assure males I am not one before I can get their listening ears, but honestly, I can't see anything wrong with the position of advocating for God-given human rights and challening ungodly, abusive mentalities. If it includes man-hating, then I am not having a bar of it, but I haven't yet come across any quote of Gloria's that indicates she is about man-hating either.
Most people are not the man hater that is portrayed. No doubt there are some, but most are NOT!
I understand the avenue you must go through in order to be heard. First step, make sure you are NOT seen as feminist. Second step, state your opinion.
This should not be, and isn't with any men that truly care.
I have seen more often that if they disagree (certain dare I say radical men) will blow you off being just a woman anyway. I think at times they use the F word just cement it in nicely.
Its strange.
Labeling people is something they did in biblical times, and had nothing to do with certain groups. Jesus came and tore down the stereotypes, and dealt the people. Today at times you don't even get a chance to see someone's heart before they are judged unworthy.
Its sad, and its fear based.
I hear people state they run into man haters all the time, and yet you know they don't leave their insulated Christian bubble too often. You have to wonder WHERE they are seeing them! Its silly for the most part.
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