Women: The indirect, mediated and derivative of Male?

I wanted to talk about the Petition that is on Change.org (I was told this site has issues with FireFox), and I wanted you to know WHY I signed it.  It has nothing to do with the debate over Egalitarians versus Complementarians.  Its about the meanings behind the teachings I see that are presented much differently than most seem to think.


I have no doubt some may find the language rather harsh, but when I researched some of the messages of their mantra (CBMW) – equal in worth, but differing roles – I found it to be very deceptive.   I found it ugly and insulting, and I can’t believe in this day and age people truly have this starting point of belief towards their fellow humans.  It’s the not ‘differing roles’ so much as their definition of ‘equal in worth’.  We will discuss today what they mean by that.

First, lets start out on a positive note!

I heard a very inspiring video this morning by Pakistani educator Ziauddin Yousafzai.  He stated in the video that in his country men are known by their sons, but in his case he is known by his daughter.  For this he is proud.

"Malala used to be known as my daughter, but now I’m known as her father," he said to the crowd. "In patriarchal societies, fathers are known by their sons. I am known by my daughter and proud of it."

Its true that people around the world know his daughter's name, and were shocked when she was shot in the face a point blank range just for going to school.  Most people know who Malala is.  Unlike many from her country this girl is a sense of pride for her family.

As you listen to his video you realize how badly women are viewed, and they are not looked at as a fellow humans.  Their society teaches girls from a very young age that their main responsibility is obedience.   They must be silent, meek and submissive.  She is not allowed to be an individual, because she will be looked upon as disobedient.

If she crosses some imagery line its perfectly acceptable for the men to kill her to save their honor.  Her obedience is her reflection of worth.  Lack of that obedience brings dishonor, and justification for the harm that comes to her.

If you think about that for a moment?  They must do some major mind gymnastics to view her as something other than 100% human.  If they can't view her as subhuman?  They may not be able to do the things we read about that happens to women in that part of the world.  They are able to separate the humanity in her, and that not only harms her…but everyone in her life and society.

Thankfully,  in my part of the world this cultural mindset is not acceptable.  Her father is a breath of fresh air, and I have no doubt his daughter is also proud of him.

What I do object is in my part of the world is being told that I am a derivative form of human.  I may have equal worth, but due to my derivative form I have differing roles in life.  Obedience to that teaching – we are told – is within God’s will. 

If I can NOT accept their teaching of my creation I am labeled;  Feminist, Jezebel, Harlot, Witch, etc.

I am told that I don’t know the difference between male and female, and that I wish to melt the genders together to have an genderless society.  That is perfectly okay for the male not knowing how to be male, and woman not knowing how to be female.  Yeah – okay then.  We are after genderless blobs right?

No.  That’s not it at all.  I don’t wish to be viewed as some indirect image of God, and some derivative form of male. 

I know what your thinking!  WOW, Hannah that is kind of out there isn’t it?  Yeah, it is OUT THERE yet that is what is TAUGHT!  Let’s look at a quote off their website, and the speaker is Bruce Ware:

It may be best to understand the original creation of male and female as one in which the male was made in the image of God in a direct, unmediated and unilateral fashion, while the female was made image of God through the man and hence in a indirect, mediated and derivative fashion. So while they are both fully image of God, there is also  God intended priority given to the man as the original image of God through whom the woman, as image of God, derived from the male comes to be…Bruce Ware in his lecture Building Strong Families in Your Church

When you can view the other gender as a byproduct of yourself?  An indirect, mediated, derivative form of human?  That is how its perfectly acceptable to say some of the awful things we hear, because it is taught that the male is the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) of the human race. 

Being the OEM the – direct, unmediated form of human – its easier to view the Non OEM partner as they do.  Yes, they say but the OEM and Non OEM are both loved equally by God.  Yet, you need to remember that God intended priority to the OEM…not the derivative.  That’s according to quote above.

Let’s look at a couple of verses from Genesis 1.  This was before God took the rib out of Adam.

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
or
Genesis 5:2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created.

Notice the language in Genesis I states “US” not me.  Of “THEM” not male, and his indirect, derivative form of helper.

Just like in Malala’s country when you are brought up from cradle to grave under the belief system that females are NON OEM brand human compared to males?  You can be justified in thinking you have headship and authority, because you are told you have PRIORITY over others. 

In this way, you can justify in your mind that obedience to your biblical role acknowledges your worth.

Ziauddin Yousafzai said he taught girls to ‘unlearn’ the lesson of obedience, because of their meaning of the word and all it entailed.

Today, I pointed out the meaning of the phrase ‘equal in worth’.  You need to make the decision yourself if that definition of ‘equal in worth’ is acceptable.

Please consider signing the petition on Change.org.  (The website I am told has a hard time with the firefox browser, so please use other one.  ie: Chrome, Internet Explorer, etc) Add your name to list of humans that want the world to know that female is not the NON OEM brand of human.

In closing, a quote from Ziauddin Yousafzai:
People ask me what is special is in my mentorship which has made Malala so bold and courageous and vocal and poised? I tell them, “Don't ask me what I did.  Ask me what I did not do.  I did not clip her wings….and that's all.

Additional Reading:
News Story about this Petition:  Petition asks gender-role group to repent
Petition to Demand for an Apology from CBMW – by Shirley Taylor
Why Protesting "Equal But Subordinate" is Not Just Me Having a Problem with Authority
Petition CBMW for an Apology Along with Me, for the Sake of Liberty and Love

Respect My Authority!

I had a neighbor years ago that just LOVED to giggle at Cartman from South Park.  I have watched the show a couple of times, and yes it is for mature audiences.   The show lampoons reality for some, and yes it is satire.

 

Cartman is loud, obnoxious, racist and obese—is often portrayed as an antagonist whose has a anti-Semitic attitude.  He is a child of a single mother, and she oozes the meek and mild attitude of ‘how women are to be’ attitude.  On the other hand, she also represents an extreme model of free love if you catch my drift!  Cartman tends to be in denial about the one side of his mother, and yet loves to control and manipulate the other side.

People tend to giggle at Cartman because he is one to demand you respect his authority, and yet you see the loud, obnoxious and immature boy that doesn’t have much to respect.

 

I found this description of him: Cartman is frequently portrayed as an antagonist or villain whose actions set in motion the events serving as the main plot of an episode. Other children and classmates are alienated by Cartman's insensitive, sexist, racist, homophobic, anti-sematic, lazy, misogynistic, self-righteous, and wildly insecure behavior, but are occasionally influenced by his obtrusive, manipulative, and propagandist antics.

Okay.  I have to admit there are some in the church to me that represent Cartman to a tea!    Jack Schaap we wrote about within the last couple of months, and YES his attitude is the extreme case of what I’m talking about.  You remember how he started his ‘holy’ tirade?

ABC news called me this week and said "We heard that you believe that men should be in charge of their wives"
I said, "No sir, I didn't say that. I said God said that. He said husbands are the head of the wife."
I said, "You got a problem with what I said when I'm quoting the Bible, then maybe you should take it up with God."
He said, "Do you think that's appropriate?"
I said, "Son, anything God says is appropriate. I think you better get that straight right now."
I never apologize for standing where God stands. I never worry standing where God stands. Somebody says, "You know what they are going to say about you?"
Pffft, who cares?
Stand in line, pick a number, slob!
Get you little squirt gun out and squirt away.
Bigger things to worry about. Heaven, Hell, life, death.

Does anyone doubt that such a man would also love to scream out, “RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!”

 

David J. Stewart wrote an article that I picked apart many years ago.  He was asked about divorcing an abusive spouse.

Interestingly, and sadly, all we see on the internet and in society today is talk about domestic violence; but NEVER do we hear anything about statistics on wives who refuse to obey their husbands. It is evil. It is just as sinful for a wife to frustrate her husband through insubordination and disobedience as it is for a man to commit domestic violence. I am not lessening the sin of domestic violence, I am emphasizing the sin of wives who rebel against their husbands by not being obedient. I realize this is ancient mentality to feminists today; but it is 100% Biblical doctrine. A wife is expected by God to obey her husband. Feminists are eagerly willing to crucify abusive husbands; BUT they won't even address the issue of wives who disobey, mistreat, and frustrate their husbands. It takes two to tango.

Does anyone doubt that such a man would also love to scream out, “RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!”

 

Reb Bradley wrote an article about Emotional Abuse and Marriage.

Let us remember that the apostles who gave us God's commands were themselves the victims of severe emotional and physical abuse. They, like Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, endured torture beyond anything we have ever seen. In his books, Pastor Wurmbrand describes his 14 years in a Romanian prison at the hands of communist torturers. His love and compassion for his torturers testifies of the assurance we have as Christians that we too can selflessly love our wives and husbands.

Certainly if those tortured on a daily basis can see the good that comes from suffering, then we as minimally suffering, soft Americans can handle the opportunities for growth that come our way through the difficulties of marriage. If we are able to cease our "giving to get" mentality and begin simply "giving" we would finally be able enjoy the fulfillment that comes from loving selflessly in the image of Christ.

Mr. Bradley feels that you came into marriage to ‘get’ instead of serve. You must be like Pastor Warmbrand, and have love and compassion for your abuser as you stay and be tortured.  If you can’t your to soft!

 

Does anyone doubt that such a man would also love to scream out, “RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!”

Patriarchy is the ultimate cause of all abuse against women?

Pastor Versus Feminist

Patriarchy is the ultimate cause of all abuse against women.

This one small sentence sure does pack a punch doesn’t it?

Do I buy that 100%?  No.  I do think at times patriarchy can be a contributing factor to abuse towards… WELL anyone!

I have family, and I have known families that tend to live by the ‘father rule’.  If the sentence, ‘patriarchy is the ultimate cause of all abuse against women’ you would see it in every instance of patriarchy.

You don’t find that to be the case, because not all people view patriarchy as authority and power based.

I’m talking a heart and attitude issue here more than anything.  My uncle for example would NEVER use the trump card, ‘I have the last word’ type of thing.  He respected and loved his wife to much to even condone such a stand.  

I realize some people would think their decision making within their household would come to standstill.  Guess what? It didn’t.  Matter of fact I’m sure he would scratch his head, and wonder why that even needs to be factor.

When you have an abusive person I do believe there are many issues at work.  I don’t believe when we get up close and personal that everyone has the same backgrounds and issues involved.  I have mentioned so many times that people are custom, and I do believe when it comes to abusive people?  Its no different.

‘Never the twain shall meet’

Have you ever heard that term before? Its Defined as: something that you say when two things or people are so different that they can never exist together or agree with each other.

A great example of this would be feminists, and complementarians.  Can you imagine?

One group telling the other they are responsible for the fall of society and are man haters.  

Then you have the other side the coined the phrase: Patriarchy is the ultimate cause of all abuse against women.

I mean WHEN have you ever seen them ‘admit’ they agree on anything?!  The extremists in both camps would rather be put to death it seems like.

I guess I seem to get more angry at the complementarians, because of their bull headedness towards being right.  I’m not saying the feminist’s don’t do that, but complementarians should know better.   

Whether or not they like the feminists they are to be Christ like towards them, and they have just as much fun throwing out myths and downright lies about the group overall.

Both groups I have seen use scare tactics, and it personally seems to me Christians are called to be above that.  

Since complementarians love the word ‘worldly’?  Their behavior shows they are projecting it, and please don’t use the excuse ‘we are all sinners’ okay?  Its been going on long enough they should have grasped a clue a while ago and stopped.

There are VOLUMES written on authority and submission – biblical roles for the genders, etc.  When it comes to family violence, or domestic violence very little is mentioned at all.  Have I seen even a small approach to address this?  Yes. 

What is sad is then you see video’s like John Piper and Wife submission, and you sit there wondering if they actually believe what they say.  Why?  It tends to go against the ‘stand on abuse’ that they wrote prior.

Things everyone has to admit

If we look at history, and the treatment of women from the past to the present?  No one can deny the abuse that has gone on, and is still present even today.  The children suffered as well, because they were at the bottom of the totem pole.  I honestly don’t understand why people get defensive about that fact.

We have removed laws that made beating of wives legal, and we have even had past church leaders such as Augustine blame the women if they were being beat.  The extremes of the past?  We all know there were abuses.  

Extreme form today?  Look at the middle east.  The misogynist attitude has always been around, and its amazing that people wish to deny it.

In the Christian context?  How often do we hear if women would do their part properly:  Submission, modesty, roles, etc. they wouldn’t get raped, abused and mistreated.

Too often you hear pastors, and female mouth pieces telling women they are to take it with humility.  On the other hand, excuses about how people can only take it so long before they lash out with justification.

Steven Tracy, author of Mending the Soul reminds us that:

So for many abusive men, in order to maintain their fragile sense of masculinity, they use physical force to keep their wives in their “proper place” and to squelch all threats to their limited male potency. This dynamic of insecure, powerless men using force to control their wives helps to explain why assault and homicide rates are highest when a woman separates or threatens to separate from an abusive husband or boyfriend. In other words, abusive men must be in control, and threats to their control of the relationship must be dealt with by force if necessary. Physical abusers also tend to employ many other forms of control (verbal threats, control of the finances, control of her relationships, etc.) to dominate and subjugate their
wives.

The fragile sense of self isn’t just based in gender, because women can be dangerous as well when they feel powerless.

No More Justifications

You often read about how its selfish to proclaim your ‘rights’, etc.  I firmly believe that is a diversion, because everyone needs a healthy sense of self.  Normally, those that are quick to call you selfish are also quick to remind you of others ‘God Ordained’ role, position, etc.  It’s a spiritual pixie dust way of proclaiming their ‘rights’.

There is no doubt in my mind that faith in Jesus Christ has moved men and women to be more kind, compassionate, grace filled, and in short transformed their lifes!  My uncle I mentioned above was a missionary, and it was clear how Jesus was a primary role in how he lived and treated others.

What seems to be lost on the complementarians is that certain men will use their teachings as justification of power and enforcement.  I have seen too many use the excuse that God will transform them, and all will be well with the world!  Sadly, after that they encourage their family members to act in ways that would enable the sinful behavior. 

I was truly taken back when Shirley Taylor quoted Dorothy Patterson:

Dr. Dorothy Patterson said “Whenever my husband tells me to do something, and even though I know it is wrong, I just have to do it, and he stands accountable before God.” (used by permission Christianity Today 1998)

It seems to me that complementarians have a real problem noting the limits of what they see as men’s authority, and headship.  Jesus noted:

Matthew 20:25-28 ISV  But Jesus called the disciples and said, "You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them and their superiors act like tyrants over them.  (26)  That's not the way it should be among you. Instead, whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant,  (27)  and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.  (28)  That's the way it is with the Son of Man. He did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many people."


The above scripture doesn’t say that no one can have authority, but it does place limits or boundaries upon the role – even a biblical role.

How often do we hear that truly abusive circumstances are few and far between?  Phyllis Schlafly decided since she has never dealt with domestic violence, or know someone involved with domestic violence?  If you run into a friend like that – get new FRIENDS!

John Piper attempted to deal with submission and domestic violence, and his example of it?  Group sex. 
Now how to apply realistic forms of domestic violence in the church when well known pastors aren’t even comfortable talking about it?  Seriously. How.

Learn to deal properly with the least of these

It is much more realistic that a wife will face the dilemma of how to respond to a husband’s verbal abuse, harsh punishment of the children, or demeaning treatment.  Its all well and good to say you should NOT submit to sin, but at what point does biblical submission allow a wife to go against her husband’s decisions?

John Piper encourages you to come to the church for help, but his ‘example’ using group sex to show how he understands domestic violence in the church?  It shows he doesn’t, and people will be afraid to come to the church.

Bruce Ware got into a lot of hot water with his comment:

and their husbands on their part, because they are sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is, of course, one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged,

Now if you look at the above quote?  Does it show the boundaries of authority, headship, or his biblical role?  No.  It puts men in a box as well.  Bruce Ware decided that if you don’t treat men in the fashion he sees as biblical he will either get abusive or act feminine (laid back).

Keep in mind some complementarians are softer in their beliefs.  There are men that truly understand the serving of others. 

When you look at history that shows the domination, control, and abuse towards women and children JUST due to gender or position?  Then you have silly examples of how the church claims they understand domestic violence in the church by using things like:  Group Sex, men get aggressive when a threat to their authority is present, get new friends if know victims, etc?

Why they can’t grasp that the impression that their form of patriarchy can encourage abusive men to take their teachings and run with it?  Back off the hatred of feminists, and think about it.

While I don’t agree with, ‘Patriarchy is the ultimate cause of all abuse against women.’ I can certainly understand WHY they get that impression.

They need to point out the boundaries clearly, and speak against those with a low sense of self – that take the teachings and use them as competition.  It doesn’t mean I’m on top and you are below me.  I’m in control and you are to follow me.  You are to do as I say, when I say and how I say – or else I have the biblical justification as HEAD to make you remember WHO is in charge!



If complementarians can’t admit that happens?  Which sadly, they seem to think NOT so much – the fear will remain towards them as NOT being safe.

Formulating lies and scare tactics towards feminism is just going to cement that fear even more firmly.

The bible does state how to deal with the ‘least of these’, and so far?  They have completely missed the target.

Diversion and Smoke Screens

I was reading a summary of Egalitarian and Complementarian views written by Bruce Ware.  I don't know about anyone else, but this man reminds of a politician.   Someone brings up an objection to something they hold dear, and they claim they will explain their position.  Politicians know how to spin things so they don't actually answer anything.  They throw out diversion and smokescreens.

Objection: This complementarian understanding is in reality a fully hierarchical view, with women subordinate to men, and as such it is intolerable and contrary to the freedom of the gospel. While it claims to uphold the  essential equality of women with men, it in fact leads inevitably to seeing women as inferior, as second-class citizens, who are not as important to God and His purposes as are men.

Response: Would you feel the same way about a parent/child relationship? Or of the relationship between an employee and his/her supervisor? Do you believe we should eliminate all manifestations of relational hierarchy, as demeaning to those under the authority of another? Relationships within authority structures surround us. We live and work in them every day. We would have utter chaos without them. But such authority structures do not entail the greater  human value or essential superiority of those in charge, or minimize the human value or imply the essential inferiority of those under their charge. Furthermore, if we are correct to think of the Trinity as analogous to the male/female relationship, consider this: surely the Scriptures do not intend to suggest Christ is inferior in value to the Father because He came only to do His Father's will. Likewise, the Scriptures do not intend to suggest that women are inferior to men because of male-headship. In fact, just the opposite is true, viz., men and women only experience their full humanity when they function in the manner God intended in His creation of them. We are most free as humans when we affirm the legitimate authority structure God intended, and work within that.

When we look at the relationship of parent and child there comes a time in which being subordinate to the parents does end.  The same goes for the employee and their supervisor.

I suppose I can throw out a complementarian response about wives!  The wife’s submission to the husband ends in death.  So her subordinate role could end as well.

How DARE you approach to Domestic Violence in the church!

There was a discussion on Mark Driscoll recently, and they posted his message to abusive men.  I remember the first time I heard it, and I had just dealt with a family going through a very hard time.  He said some things that I wanted to say, and I felt some of the rage he was feeling as he screamed, "HOW DARE YOU!".

It was the human part inside of me over the hurt and anger I felt over a family being terribly mistreated.  I was very UPSET over their abuser's entitled mindset over how he was justified.  I was seething over how he could find fault in everyone and everything, and not once did he step up to the plate with his own sin.

Abusive people (not just men) are great at blaming everything and anything for this behavior.  They are not capable of owning things, because it makes them feel 'less than'.  It makes them feel powerless, and it makes them vulnerable.  They look at it like some opening that people are waiting for so they can charge it to crush them into the ground.  What they don't realize?  Most people aren't interested in that, and yet that is HOW they view the world and the people within it.  Remember how I always say they tend to do things with motive?  They assume everyone does that!

You see from time to time when they will admit certain things, but if you stopped long enough to listen?  They always have a BUT attached.  There is always justification.  There is always some hurt or reason for their actions.  What they never offer up is ownership of their own poop, and yet demand it from others in a very threatening way.  They will say they have a bad temper, and yet when you get into the nuts and bolts of that aspect?  Their anger stops all conversation.  You may be able to speak of it one day, and yet the next time HOW DARE YOU!

Functional Fixedness

Recently I was reading A Wife’s Submission, and she mentioned and quoted a book called the Sacred Influence.

Charis R. Hart quoted a poster that seemed to hit a nerve with many, and I have to admit the comments from this poster makes me feel very sad for those that are so narrow minded towards the world.  I just don't understand people attempting to shove others into a box that they don't fit into, and just preaching to them that THIS is good - and if you don't do as they say?  Well - sigh - they have some great manipulative little speeches that have been vomited up all over the place.

I guess I have a different prospective on those that preach the constant 'feminists are the biggest foe', and remember a healthy fear of your husband's wrath if you push him to far is just plain reality.  For me?  Its not only insulting to most women, but VERY insulting and demeaning to most men!  People love to yack up the man haters, but in their own statements they show such a short sighted view of men.  I truly have to ask myself WHO are the real man haters at times?  They claim they love them, but how can that truly be when they have such a LOW opinion of them?

They love to mention the suffering, and how it is good, etc.  Then turn around and mention the 'wrath' of men that they said got their buttons pushed.  How its human nature, because they are bigger and stronger!  How everyone has their limits!  They use Jesus as the example for wifes, and yet when his greatest suffering went down?  There was no wrath present - he allowed his father's wrath to happen instead.  It seems their message is suffer as Christ did, and act as he did to towards suffering for the wifes.  Don't forget ONE THING - if you can't you may feel the wrath of your husband.  Strange right?  Wifes - learn to suffer!  Husbands - we know you have wraths and we warned them!  How completely silly.

We have all had people that WANT TO push our buttons, and they can't tell me how Jesus was treated towards the end wasn't suppose to do that for HIM as well!  They mocked him - they ridiculed him - they tortured him - they killed him.  He allowed God's wrath to take care of business, and they don't seem to look to his example of how he responded when those buttons were being pushed.  He was a man afterall - why didn't he react as they claim men are 'wired'?  NOPE - they skip over that part, and remind us they are like GOD'S WRATH!  Strange how they truly do believe they justified sinful behavior.

Can we all do that all the time?  We aren't Jesus are we?  So NO we can't!  Can we do that sometimes?  Heck can we strive for MOST of the time?  Yes, I think we can.  I'm not talking suffering in silence in the form of enabling here!  To me there is a proper way and an incorrect way of reacting to sinful behavior.  We get so caught up with this 'men are wired to be aggressive' stuff at times that we seem to lose prospective on what is right.  It applies to everyone, and not just one gender!

Charis had a picture of her usurping her husband.  Its a picture of what alot of churches say a marriage is to look like, and yet claim the people should be in the opposite seats.  To me its not a form of gender confusion from one group or another - its their message!

Notice the ROLE REVERSAL!
Tsk. Tsk!
That was me. I “usurped his position”.

Here is a quote from the book:

This “martyr” method of marriage, though common among well meaning Christian women, shortchanges both husband and wife.

Your husband will prosper spiritually and personally by excelling in loving you. God designed marriage, in part, to help both husband and wife grow in character. If you do all the sacrificing, if your husband runs over you, he’s not growing; he’s shrinking, spiritually speaking. He’s becoming lower in character. You may well become a saint after living with such a man for twenty years, but he is going to become increasingly miserable, because ultimately, any man who treats others poorly begins to despise himself. This might sound backward, but you need to love your husband by teaching him how to love you, because its spiritually healthy for him to grow in loving you.

At one time, the thought of telling her husband what she needed would have sounded selfish to Jo, and she would have dismissed the thought. She has since learned that respect matters and that a husband won’t truly love a woman for whom he has no respect. Jo realized that if she didn’t respect herself, her husband would adopt that same attitude of disrespect….

An angry husband often acts as if only his wife needs to change. This is a false view based on a lack of respect.

Gary Thomas's words hit a nerve for me.  He said one thing that Lundy Bancroft also said in his book.  Men mistreat their wifes and families - because they can!   If you think about that for a moment?  That statement pretty much applies to any person that tends to abuse others - its not a gender only statement either.

I found a interview with Gary Thomas, and you need to remember that not ALL things within these writings may apply to abusive relationships 100%.  I truly believe that part of my own personal transformation was changing myself - not for my husband or marriage - but because that is what God wanted.  It wasn't the type of change you hear about that hints at enabling bad behavior.

You know what I mean - Advice they place out there but it only hints and is NOT in your face about enabling bad behavior - so NOW they can say that ISN'T what they meant!  Lets show some examples:

Bruce Ware:

and their husbands on their part, because they are sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is, of course, one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged, or more commonly by becoming passive, acquiescing and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and churches.

John Piper:

Now that’s one kind of situation. Just a word on the other kind. If it’s not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.

Dobson:

Dr. James Dobson, addresses the issue of domestic abuse in his book Love Must Be Tough. He believes the best approach is to force a crisis that confronts the problem head-on. Only then can it be treated and resolved. When you and your husband are both in a good mood, let him know that you have something important to discuss. Tell him that you love him very much, but that you are not going to allow him to abuse you any more. Tell him that you want him to get counseling for his anger problem immediately, and that unless he agrees, you are going to need to separate from him for a while. Given his past behavior, it's likely that he will beg for your forgiveness and promise that he will never harm you again. As much as you may be tempted to believe him, don't. Set a deadline for him to start counseling and stick to your guns. You also need to have a safety plan in place in the event that your husband responds negatively to this news.

Its funny how they can't clarify past that point isn't it?  What is even stranger is that can't even admit its pretty darn close to enabling!  NOPE - we always totally miss their point, and of course they never know how to 'clarify' it any better.  I have wonder if they have ever prayed about that?

ANYWAY - here is the first video!



Some are going to take it as a bash, but I don't think it was meant that way.  To me he is trying to show people on how to empower yourself - to change yourself - to do what is holy and has good purpose.  That is key don't you think?  'GOOD PURPOSE'  I think we have lost sight of that part completely at times!

Becoming Strong Enough to Address your husband's "Functional Fixedness".
He mentions that there are quite a few books written for women by women that are very helpful in some areas that relate to men.  He also admits, "Only a women would think that this would work with a guy!"


I thought that was quite funny, and it made perfect sense!  Why?  When I listen to what some preachers try to tell us how women are 'wired', how we think or feel, etc I have to admit they haven't got the first clue about most women.  Why wouldn't that work the other way around?

He attempts to show that functional Fixedness is something that women don't seem to understand.

Men are NOT motivated by people they love - they are motivated by people they respect.

When you plea with your husband about how something hurts you, and he doesn't listen you seem to wonder if your communication skills are off when he doesn't take you to serious.  Why?  He keeps doing what hurts you anyway.

Why does your husband treat you the way he does?  Because HE CAN!

He is not motivated by your pain - he is motivated by HIS PAIN!

When he keeps doing something that he knows frustrates you?  He will put up with your frustration, and your speeches (or nagging as people say) as long as he can continue to do what he wants - because to him?  Overall its working! To him?  I can have her and I can have this - so I'm going to go with it!

People need to remember one thing that is important - God - not your martial status MUST define your life!

To become a strong women of respect is the first step to influence your husband.

He said that in most cases women will put up with their husband's weakness, because she is afraid to rock the boat.  Their whole identity is wrapped up in their marriage, and they fear his anger more than anything.

That opinion makes more sense then those rantings about how women today state 'HEAR ME ROAR', and you can dictate the marriage - and BE THE BOSS instead, etc.   When you look at abusive relationships - there is alot of fear there, and they simply ignore it.  I never understood WHY they never realized how completely stupid it sounds to most people.  They seem to think all women are man hating feminists, and its often quite silly to start from that place.  You tend to lose your audience when you realize this spirit is not within you, and you can't even relate to it.  lol yet you are TOLD you are one and DO feel this!  Just like abusers they tend to tell you HOW you think and feel - amazing isn't it?

He mentions don't worry about him being angry with you - be concerned when he loses respect for you.

 - keep in mind that is one area you need to be careful of if dealing with abuse.  Abusive anger can be dangerous.  I think what most victims don't realize?  Abusers don't have respect for their victims, and sadly I don't think they have respect for themselves either.


He turns a dear ear - she buries the pain - the relationship dies.


If you look real close to alot of teachings? Allowing a person to wake up, and basically tell them they need to respect you in this way is often called usurping the way he suggests.  I think he has a stronger point than they do.

If you can't do things that will wake your spouse up to the fact that you want their respect? They ask us to rely on spiritual pixie dust instead. You aren't given the tools this author speaks of.  If you communicate that you feel he is disrespecting your feelings of being hurt, and still nothing changes - he doesn't see the incentive. To me this author is telling you to find a way to influence him to pay attention, and at times that will be pain for him. Its not rooted in a vindictive nature - as you hear you MUST be doing so often - but due to trying to help him past that stage of selfishness and into a better man of God.

The role of the wife is NOT to change their husbands, but to change themselves.  Christ died for the church to make her holy, and her sacred influence on the husband can help him grow.  Goal isn't always to make her better - or him better - but to make it holy.

A man with a bad temper is destroying his life.  Showing him HOW to relate to people on a better level is a GOOD thing! Its a holy thing - its helping HIM!  YES there is some benefits to everyone, but it is a good desire.

I'm sure some of the items he mentions in his book would be dangerous to try with abusers - we do need to keep that in mind.  One trait of most abusive people is when you put your foot down - say threaten separation - they are all ears and ready to do what is needed.  Their 'pain' motivated them to finally listen, and in healthy relationships they will finally CARE about your pain.  With abusers?  I don't think that applies so much - their motivation is to gain that control they seem to losing.  Its hard for them to respect anyone, because frankly they don't respect themselves.

I thought this book would help others get a good foundation for a healthy sense of empowerment - something you tend to lose within the cycle of abuse.

Being NOT submissive to your husband is now an excuse for abuse?

NOT submissive to your husband - because of his sinful nature could cause him to abusive towards his wife! The wife - because of her sinful nature - isn't submissive because she wants to be the BOSS says Pastor Ware!

and their husbands on their part, because they are sinners, now respond
to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is, of course,
one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged, or more
commonly by becoming passive, acquiescing and simply not asserting the
leadership they ought to as men in their homes and churches.

Ware it seems doesn't understand the definition of what abusive is. He is using what people call a 'myth' definition. That is where he is getting himself into trouble. True abusers have a pattern of behavior. Its not being a jerk one day, and lashing out towards their spouse on occasion. Being labeled an abuser means you have a pattern of behavior that is abusive.

When you have a person that has a pattern of behavior of being abusive - then his statement is offensive, and really shows ignorance towards what abusive natures truly mean. Why? A true abusive person doesn't need an excuse! They are also going to LOVE what he said, and run with it!

People with a true abusive nature don't have to feel their role is being usurped. Burning dinner and not being able to read their minds is all it takes. What they want and need from day to day changes, and you are expected to figure that out without being told.

Anyone that understands the true definition of what being abusive is compared to the myth type that Ware uses knows he comment is ungrounded, and completely off the mark!

The myth definition has been overused in the past, and people have ended up dead. Being submissive or not isn't going to cause the abusive person to lash out. The abusive person is going to lash out because their pattern of behavior shows they are abusive. You can't MAKE someone abusive! Its choice! Abusive people can be healed, but they also have to face the music of their past sins.

Can a whining child trigger an abusive person to lash out? Yep! A NON whining child can also cause an abusive person to lash out as well! Why? An abusive person doesn't need a rational excuse - they are just are.

True abusive people are going to use the excuse of their spouse NOT being submissive. Why? They are known for twisting scripture to fit their needs. They will also tell their children = sorry I was to hard on you during the whipping but if you were not whining you may not have gotten that hard!

From the standpoint of those that understand the definition of what abusive means - and clearly Ware's ignorance towards what it means is where you hit the rub.

I mean how often do you tell a spouse of an alcoholic that if they were nicer to them that day they may not have gotten drunk? Generally, people aren't going to say that. Why? Most people know alcoholics don't need an excuse! Triggers are excuse.


There are some very interesting conversations about this man, and him clearly not doing his homework!

Suzanne's bookshelf, and 'The Cause for Abuse'

Complegalitarian, and Complementarian Bruce Ware: Women Recieve Salvation By Faith Through Works, and More

Adventures in Mercy, and Bruce Ware: Women Saved by Salvation, through Obedient Wombs