I was over at Women In Ministry when I stumbled upon advice from John Piper regarding submission and abuse.
If you would rather read the transcript please go to Women in Ministry site she has it there.
The John Piper's in the world need to know that NOT only are the women of his church being damaged, but his STUPIDITY is also damaging the children! That is going to effect our future generations of the church, and their tithes to keep their doors open and also help others.
I'm sorry but I have to look at this man's body language first of all. His giggle at the beginning was offensive for one thing. Its not funny, but a very serious issue.
When the women of his church that have been abused, and wake up and leave his church? John Piper is seriously going to wonder what happened. That's the sad part.
The John Piper's of the world need to step up, and educate themselves on domestic violence within the church. They need to go to a faith based domestic violence organization, and spend some time there. I'm talking about more the HI HELLO to the gate keeper.
This teaching is irresponsible and dangerous, and one day I can see the church getting their BUTTS sued off with the advice they give. He actually told women to take the verbal abuse 'for a season', and a smack down in the evening...then call him in the morning. Has John Piper lose his mind?
If those that are out and feel safe enough, and their children are willing? Have them sit down and write John Piper a letter about dealing with domestic violence within the church as a child.
Allow John Piper to hear from a child that realizes the church has told their Mommy that she needs to take verbal abuse for a season, and allow herself to be hit by Daddy. THEN the church will be called to help mommy with the aftermath. Ask the child to tell John Piper what effect that had on their life. John Piper doesn't seem to understand the damage it does to the WHOLE FAMILY! Domestic violence, and the even the types he giggles at like verbal abuse and emotional abuse DAMAGE Jesus's children!
You see to me the 'leader' of the home Mr. Piper has a responsibility as well.
You as a leader of the church need to sit these children down, and truly explain your position to them as they:
Hide under the beds
Cover their ears
And cry in fear!
I wonder if your position would change as you see the pain in their eyes, and damaging effects of their lifes! I wonder if submission at that point would be as important to you at that point. Do you think Jesus would see it your way?
What the Bible does tell us is this: Children have a special place in God’s heart and anyone who harms a child is inviting God’s wrath upon Him. Jesus welcomed little children to His side and said that the kingdom of God belongs to “such as these”. Mark 10:13 Guess what John Piper? That includes YOU as you lead your congregation to help HARM these children!
Your advice is damaging the children John Piper! You are allowing HARM by your giggle and mocking of this issue. Its real and it hurts. Its damaging, and you have allowed the cycle to continue to the next generation. You John Piper are enabler of abusive behavior. Shame on YOU!
Jesus had harsh words for anyone who would cause a child to stumble, “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” The Bible tells parents to be gentle and loving with their children (Ephesians 6:4; Colossians 3:21).
It seems to me God it is abundantly clear how feels about the issue. Double check your notes, but if you give counsel to the Daddy that harms them? You can't claim ignorance ANYMORE!
You see YOUR LEADER of the home is also damaging the children, and the future generations of the church. You telling women that we don't need to hear from you until its done, and NOT tell her to call the police for her protection and those of the children? HELLO that's illegal in this country! SHAME ON YOU JOHN PIPER!
You are giving them the wrong image of God. You are telling them that the church, and our Lord Jesus would allow their mother to be mistreated, and for them to endure witnessing and living with that. You are telling them its acceptable. Do you think GOD would be pleased with that stand?
Please tell those children that submission teachings are MORE important, and I will tell you they will ask about the teaching for their Daddy. How are you going to answer them? He is the leader of the home? WILL THAT make them SLEEP BETTER?
Please let them know that you have to be SURE what type of abuse you are dealing with so you will know how to respond. Please tell them that one kind of pain from the abuser is better than the other please. They truly need to hear this from your pulpit. How about a children's sermon huh? Please tell the children the truth!
Children? Here is the address!
Desiring God
John Piper
2601 E Franklin Ave
Minneapolis, MN 55406
Children would you rather call? Call toll free! 1.888.346.4700
Please tell JOHN PIPER that your PAIN is important to GOD! Your witnessing of abuse is SIN in GOD'S EYES! Tell him you will pray for him - goodness knows the man needs it - and tell him you hope he sleeps WELL tonight!
John Piper's your Ignorance is Killing Children! SHAME ON YOU!
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43 comments:
Hannah,
It is noble that you want John Piper to see the error of his ways. And I hope a letter campaign makes a difference.
I am more pessimistic, however. I see where this is coming from.
John Piper serves the god of male dominance, not the God of love and justice. Not Jehoveh Rapha, the Lord our Healer nor Jehoveh Jireh, the Lord our Provider.
He is more concerned with upholding his idea of order in the home than compassion for the down-trodden and oppressed.
In fact, I've heard that these kind don't really believe abuse exists in the Christian home. They believe that is a made up issue put forth by foaming at the mouth feminists who want to destroy the family.
So, good luck on this.
Those who feel so inclined to write the letters Hannah suggests, please do so. I hope I'm wrong about Piper. And I'm more than willing to be proved wrong if you all can do it.
I wish to God Almighty, that men like Piper would get a clue.
He IS destroying women and children with his advice from the pit of hell.
Mara R.
Mara - I have to say I wonder if it will come down to someone dying, and them getting sued before they open their eyes. Its sad - but I can see that coming. I doubt they do personally.
Mara and Hannah,
I think it would be wise for both of you to know a little bit more about Piper, his positions on this issue, his teachings, etc. before verbally hurting his ministry like you both are.
I personally work with him. I attend his College & Seminary and I work at Desiring God Ministries. I can tell you as a fact that he is not how you paint him to be. He is a sinner saved by grace that is saturated by Scripture and deeply in love with Jesus. He is incredibly faithful to the Word of God. He does not stray from it. What he states it this video are principles built on Scripture.
It would be wise for you both to learn more about him before making these accusations.
His reputation and love for God and his church does not need defending, but I do feel like I should state the things I have stated.
For God's glory and your joy,
Nick
The reason I mentioned the names for God as The Lord our Healer and the Lord our Provider is because I have noted that these female-submission-at-all costs buffoons seem to worship a god called 'the god who calls women to submit to men'. They seem to think that is one of the names for God in the Bible that He has chosen to reveal Himself by. It has become THAT important to them.
But I have news for them. That name is not in the Bible but is an idol they have created. And that idol IS more important to them than the true God who gives His names as Healer and Provider. They are profaning God's real names and His true nature by saying He has a different nature. They put submission of women as more important than the healing of women. Something God has never said or done.
And if submission destroys the woman and her children, these buffoons deny it, refuse to see, or even worse have a "sorry about your luck," mentality. It's this sort of "stinks to be you," attitude toward abused women that is making women leave the church and embrace atheism or paganism.
Sorry.
Piper and his bunch get to me some days worse than others. This seems to be a bad day for me to think about these guys. I need to go find something to do to get my mind off of it.
Mara R.
Who are Piper and his bunch? This is a curious bunch of accusations. No names have mentioned. You are grouping him with a bunch of unknowns.
What else have you read/seen by Piper? Is this the only thing? It seems this is the case.
Are you able to Biblically refute what he is saying? Your opinion is about as worthless as Piper's and mine if it is not backed up with Scripture.
Nick
Hannah,
I can see 2 things Piper got right: 1.) a woman is not required to submit in every case, and 2.) the church stepping in the help is crucial. Other than those 2 points, his speech is worse than hogwash because it is so damaging.
The thing John Piper fails to acknowledge is that a husband who verbally abuses his wife IS demanding that she stop submitting to the Lord, and submit to her husband only. Piper fails to realize that Jesus says we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, (and other verses about our worth in Christ) but the verbally abusive husband says this is not true, that his wife is scum, and he says it very insistently because he is trying to get his wife to agree with him. Most abused wives end up agreeing with their abuser-husband about her worth, ability, etc. Even women who are highly educated and effective, end up believing they are greatly lacking. Believing this kind of lie is sin, yet the wife does NOT know she is sinning, nor that she has stopped submitting to the Lord in a most vital area. Once she stops submitting to Jesus in that area, it is easy to yield to sinning at her husband's demands in other areas as well.
Why is he saying that the church will only step in when it is PHYSICAL ViOLENCE? Doesn't he realize that a man who is verbally abusive is NOT bearing Christian fruit? The Bible says, "By their fruit ye shall know them." According the their fruit, abusive husbands are not genuine Christians. They are not producing the fruit that comes from being connected to the Vine. Pastors should be concerned about this LONG BEFORE the man hits or otherwise physically hurts his wife. Why draw the line at physical abuse, when the man has obviously sinned long before that? Doesn't he realize that if the church does not confront an abusive husband early on--long before he physically abuses--the likelihood of stopping the abuse and saving that marriage is VERY SMALL?
Why has Wife Submission become one of the sacraments of Christianity? Why hasn't the husband's denial of self--giving himself up for his wife--received the same heavy emphasis?
I would guess John Piper verbally abuses his own wife. Why else would he be so insistent on protecting a man's right to verbally knife his wife?? Why else would he so rigorously protect a husband's right to sin against his wife? It appears to me that his "doctrine" of husband authority has become a sacrament to him and supercedes most other doctrines. It is such a sacred doctrine, that a husband is allowed to sin grievously against his wife in order to uphold it?
Can you think of another sacrament where this is so? Perhaps the sacrament of baptism should be so sacred that dipping the individual in ice-cold water should be allowed and even encouraged to show witnesses the person is sincere and 100% obedient to God. Or the sacrament of communion, wouldn't it be better to lace the bread and drink with poison to better prove that if a person manages to survive unscathed, that person has God's spirit within?
I sent John Piper a copy of my novel "Behind the Hedge," in April, 2009, (For those who don't recognize the title, go to www.wanetadawn.com for info.) Did he trash it or did he read it? If he read it, how could he chuckle at the question of submitting to a verbal abuser? How dare he speak on the subject without reading up on it first? How can he decide that an adult male's authority is more important than the welfare of wives and children?
I agree with you 100%, Hannah! Perhaps a flood of mail from those who suffered abuse as children, or who watched their mother being verbally abused, will help him re-examine the issue. He certainly does not care about the plight of women. What a testimony to the world!! What an open invitation to abusive men!!! John Piper is guilty of submission tyranny. For more on the subject, see my blog http://submissiontyranny.blogspot.com
Nick,
"He is incredibly faithful to the Word of God. He does not stray from it. What he states it this video are principles built on Scripture."
I am not impressed. I see nowhere in the Word of God that the line is drawn at physical violence. I see nowhere in the word of God that mercy is the right of abusive husbands, but not of their wives. The Word of God says the fruit of the spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control. Domestic Abusers lack evidence of ANY of them, and the John Piper doesn't want to hear about it until the wife's life is threatened--according to Piper's definition of when her life is threatened.
Nick, what do you know of domestic abuse? Have you read how devastating it is to women and children? It is like taking drinking a toxic poison. It causes illness. It is life-threatening. Verbal abuse is often the ONLY warning before a husband kills his wife. Verbal abuse IS LIFE THREATENING. The church's position--including John Piper's--should be higher than the law of the land. The Lord judges what is in the heart; lust is committing adultery in one's heart. The hatred of the verbal abuser shows that his heart is full of murder. God is clear on judging those who are revilers, not peaceable, not gentle. How can Piper ignore these scripture passages and wink at verbal abusers?
Please, Nick, educate yourself on the subject. Read my novel, "Behind the Hedge," to see the devastation verbal abuse causes. One male reader commented "Surely, it can't be that bad." Nick, not only is it THAT BAD, in many cases it is worse! I purposely kept the abuse in my novel toned down so that readers can see even the toned down abuse is horrible and sinful. Go to www.wanetadawn.com for info on my novel, or order through Amazon or a bookstore of your choice.
Nick:
With all due respect I have learned more than this one single video presentation of John Piper, and his positions on issues. Please hand me more credit than that.
I think it would be wise of you to learn more about the dynamics of domestic violence, and you will understand WHY people are upset over comments like his. He isn't the only one that does this. Its clear from what he said he hasn't got a clue. When you don't have a clue about the dynamics of something you can't ground something in scripture. In general? You misapply it.
You see a role of a man is rooted in the word of God as well, and for HIS sake he is to love her among many others things - per scripture. A person that abuses is not showing allegiance to anyone except themselves. Tell me when they lose that allegiance is Christ 'governing' their life?
Its strange to me that you ask someone to take abuse, and wait to call the church in the morning. You should be asking the person to find a way to safety, and if they have to lock themselves in a room and call the police than DO IT. When the safety and welfare of individuals are at risk - and that's NOT your call to know when that is - scripture is very clear on what to do. Even Jesus got the heck out dodge a couple of times. He didn't wait to be hurt, and call people in the morning.
When you tell women to wait for office hours? You are telling her that you are NOT safe! When you tell her NOT to seek safety, but wait for the church? You place her and her children at risk. You seem not to realize that the 'verbal unkindness' as he put it can esculate into something much more ugly. A child can get in their way, and get hurt. They can try to defend their mother and get hurt. If an abuser throws things they can get stuck. They also get to hear the verbal vomit of a man acting irrationally and out of control attacking with a mission. The mission is to PUT her in HER PLACE.
He will be the first one to remind her of her role, and it won't be using YOUR defination. He will use your words and defination to twist and use for his mission.
If the church can't open their eyes, and see and hear from people that have been there - listen to the counsel of those that are also faith based and have TRAINED themselves to deal with this scripturally based manner - what makes you think you are going to be safe and be able to 'navigate the difficulties' within this family? You clearly have no clue what you are dealing with if you ask people to wait to seek safety.
His giggle showed women that he doesn't think certain types of harm are worth taking serious. You don't giggle and shake your head, and then say some of things he said...and seriously tell me BUT he is a nice guy and knows his bible. He may know alot of it, but he clearly hasn't studied enough.
I challege him to take some SERIOUS time at a faith based domestic violence location, and sit back and listen, ask questions and observe. He is there to learn things he clearly can't see. He might be surprised afterwards WHY people get so upset at statements he has made. He may understand WHY children would wish to write him, and tell him of the things they have experienced...and want him to take another look.
He might be a very nice man of faith, but he is clearly off base here. When you talk ignorance you get responses. His being a nice man has nothing to do with it.
You may be defending him, but I'm defending those that KNOW John Piper's type of responses, and maybe men like you that haven't done their homework. When you don't do it with matters such as these? You get people killed.
Do you seriously wish to have that on your plate to deal with the rest of your life? I have had pastors speak to me that have. You don't want to join the club no one wants to be a member of.
My outrage is justified.
John Piper is incredibly faithful to the parts of the Bible that best prop him up, prop men up, and seal their authority over women.
He completely misses the places where it talks about God's wrath on the oppressor. And believe me, there are many, many, MANY more places that speak against injustice and oppression than there are that talk about a woman submitting.
He does not get that domestic abuse does happen in the Christian home and that the men perpetuating it are under severe judgement from God. He needs to warn the evil abusers that they are sinners in the hands of and angry God and stop being so freaking concerned about the way a woman responds to the oppressor, whether or not she is being is respectful enough. He is doing the abuser no favors by encouraging women to coddle them or walk on egg shells around them.
Mara R.
(okay, I wasn't going to post again but I did anyway. This incredibly-faithful-to-the-Word man has a huge blind spot concerning the Word, women, and his pet doctrine. Dear God, please help Piper and Nick to see the folly and the danger in Piper's advice to abused women. It doesn't matter how nice and sincere he is. He is sincerely wrong in this area.)
http://jesusheals.informe.com/forum/this-is-the-main-place-to-post-f32/my-answer-to-john-piper-s-advice-t255.html
I can't seem to post it on their site. Let's hope there is a useful dialogue that will change things in some way.
I think it is just that nice people can't imagine the horror that is endured by some of their sisters (and brothers) who are abused. I wish they would read some of the stories..
Thank you Minister Jacky.
I thought it was a very heart filled and thoughtful post.
I encourage everyone to go and read it!
I posted this on Cheryl Schatz's website and it was suggested I post it here, as well:
Because of Piper’s views on the second-class citizenship of women in the kingdom, I have pretty much dismissed him completely. I used to try to cull out the useful and edifying points of his theology and dismiss the nonsense, but it seems that his ministry and theology are increasingly ‘built around’ male domination. Perhaps if I was male, I’d be better at compartmentalizing the ‘women need to put up with anything dished out to them stuff’ but being female, it makes it a little more difficult to integrate. I have been told by men I respect that ‘that’s just a secondary’ consideration, but I can honestly say that I bet it’s a whole lot easier for it to be secondary to them because it doesn’t seek to harm or marginalize them.
-Savannah
Pastor Jacky, what you say about Piper I used to say about Dobson. He was a compassionate and merciful man who did not understand the mind of an abuser. Because of his goodness, he couldn't understand how bad it can get.
Sure, this is possibly true with Piper. But his bunch (CBMW & SGM, okay, nick, I named Piper's bunch and you are one of them) will never listen to you. You are female and are in the position of a minister. To them you are a rebellious woman because you will not stay in your gender role as defined by them. They won't hear you. You, by being a minister while at the same time being female are sinning worse than a physically abusive husband and father because you are rebelling against male authority.
I'm glad for your words and I hear them, and so do many lurkers here so I'm not telling you to not speak up. Please speak up, again and again. There are many hurting who need to hear what you have to say.
Mara R.
P.S. Thank you Savannah for putting your two cents in here. I'm looking forward to the day when more and more women will tune our ministers like Piper and his bunch (CBMW & SGM) and start searching the scriptures themselves and find true freedom in Christ apart from the legalism of Piper et al.
Nick - Just wondering.
You said about John Piper;
“He is incredibly faithful to the Word of God. He does not stray from it.”
I posted this on another blog. What do you think?
Ladies
I hurt for you, and the struggles with this abomination of “abuse.”
I love your reasonings and your responce to the foolishness of Piper.
Here is my pain with him and others that call themselves “leaders”
and heap tons of “spiritual abuse” on the “Bride of Christ.”
Here are some hard questions to ask about “The Religious Sytem.”
Piper calls himself a pastor. Hmmm?
In the Bible, How many people... have the title pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are... referred to as pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are... ordained as a pastor?
In the Bible, How many congregations are... led by a pastor?
Every titled “pastor” I’ve met also had the “title” reverend.
Can’t find that one in the KJV either; Can you?
If no one in the Bible is “called or has the title” “pastor”
don’t I help “perpetrate a myth” that is not in the Bible
and help “the traditions of men” make the Word of non effect
when I call or refer to someone as “pastor?”
Do you see other problems that Piper has?
Is he deceived?
He probably thinks he is an leader/elder as many do.
Jesus told His disciples “not” to be called leaders and none did.
Matthew 23:10
King James Version -
Neither be ye called masters:
for one is your Master, even Christ.
The Interlinear Bible -
Nor be called leaders,
for one is your leader the Christ.
Phillips Modern English -
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only one leader, Christ.
Today's English Version -
nor should you be called leader.
your one and only leader is the Messiah.
The Amplified-
you must not be called masters ( leaders )
for you have one master ( leader ) the Christ.
Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
His disciples all called themselves servants,
none called themselves “leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “servant-leader.” None.
Titles become idols and
pastors become masters.
Hmmm? Is Piper faithful to the word of God?
Or is he faithful to the traditions he has been taught by man?
When did “pastor” become a “Title,” a profession, a paid job, an idol?
Peace
P.S. Nick, you can reach me at;
lovefaith101@gmail.com
would love to continue the conversation.
I am going to politely remove myself from the conversations going on here.
I didn't intend for my comments to start a fire. I completely disagree (on a personal and biblical level) with many things that are being stated here. I have and will continue to defend John Piper. He has proved himself to me and many thousands of other believers as a faithful expositor of the Word of God.
It seems the issues you all have are not so much with Piper but rather with what the Word of God states about the difference between men and women's roles (not significance or worth; just roles).
So, I'm signing off.
Nick
Nick,
Frankly, a man who minimizes the plight of women who are abused is not anywhere close to "nice." Cruel would be more like it. It's like a kid who aids and abets a bully, but pretends to be nice and reasonable.
So, Nick, when the school bully demands that your child give up his winter coat when the temp is 0 degrees F, and sacrifice his/her lunch money as well, the "nice" Piper would reason with your child that he/she really doesn't need the coat or the lunch money, and sweetly tell him/her to do as the bully says. After all, the bully is only being a tiny bit unkind, and is not asking your child to sin.
Nick, the uproar over "nice-guy Piper's" statements has nothing to do with roles, unless you truly believe the husband's role is to school his wife. Remember that Bible verse that says "Husbands, train up your wives in the way they should go."? You don't? I don't either. It isn't in the Bible.
So why are you teaching roles--allowing abuse--as if it is????
"Titles become idols and
pastors become masters."
A. Amos Love, I love your quote, and it even rhymes.
"Hmmm? Is Piper faithful to the word of God?
Or is he faithful to the traditions he has been taught by man?"
Along with all the things you list that are not in the Bible, and which are clearly the traditions taught by man, are the traditions of husband authority, husband leadership, husband rulership. Those aren't in the Bible either. Unless we use a figure of speech, the word "head" to arrive at those. But should we base an entire doctrine on a figure of speech? Especially when the word CLEARLY tells husbands to love their wives and sacrifice for them?
And in Romans 12:1-2, which is written to "brothers," men are told to "present your bodies as a living sacrifice." This is not just being willing to die for the wife "if needed," as Piper writes in "Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood." This is dying to self daily, being a "LIVING SACRIFICE." No room for the kind of abusive husband authority Piper permits by calling it something else.
I have no problem with gender roles. Myself, I am definitely more on the complementarian side of things.
My problem is that Piper is saying that my temporary role as wife supersedes that as sister in Christ.
If my biological brother were in a pattern that damaged his soul (say... pornography, dishonesty, or pride) it would be my duty to warn him of the weeds Satan had been using to choke his soul.
But what I understand Piper to be saying is that I am to allow the most precious man in my life, my best friend, lover, and the father of my children, to continue in a pattern that is harmful to his soul, his witness, as well as the Body of Christ WITH MY FULL KNOWLEDGE.
Someone once said that all evil needs to succeed is for the good people to do nothing.
Piper is asking me to do nothing and watch my husband destroy himself.
He is asking me to allow my husband to continue doing things that my husband will have to stand before God and give an account for.
And many abusers are not aware they are abusive, in their minds it is right and justified.
But I would know it for what it is, abuse to my soul and his.
I am extremely protective of my marriage and my family. I will not stand by and watch The Destroyer wreak havoc on them.
I am a fan of Piper, he words have given me great comfort and wisdom in hard times. I owe my current place in life to the fact that God used Piper to get to me.
But as wise, gracious, and humble a man Piper might be, he is still just that.
A man.
A human.
A sinner saved by the grace of God.
This means, he is not perfect.
He will be wrong and he will screw up.
I suggest, that perhaps this might be one of the occasions on which Piper, as a fellow human, allowed his humanity and his own opinion to shine through instead the love, mercy, and justice of God.
Thank you Tasha. I appreciate your prospective.
I honestly don't have a problem with roles, but to me this has nothing to do with roles. If they feel this has to do with roles, then I have an issue with their definition of them.
Sometimes I wonder if they need to stop, and place themselves in the other person's shoes to grasp what they are truly asking of this person.
I have no doubt he can be very wise, and I also have heard some things from him that I enjoyed.
With that said - there has been enough material, books, seminars, bible studies, etc. to ask people to take a second look at what they are preaching on this subject.
To truly understand and realize that we as the church have used the wrong stereotypes, myths, views of culture, etc to handle this, and sadly people have died. This can be turned around with wise counsel. If they would JUST listen, and open their hearts enough. It seems they hear a little, but just refuse to hear it all.
I have had more than one preacher, teacher do that - open themselves up to the whole concept - and realize how completely off they were. I think men fight with their egos and their humbleness at times. We all our areas don't we? The scales came off their eyes, and they were crushed by what they saw.
He has parts of this right, and more of it wrong. They say due to my lack of biblical knowledge is my error. If they can't see the carnage of the women that are left behind over these opinions - can they stop to watch the children?
When they can't I have to wonder if they truly are humble enough to learn from others, and stop teaching for a moment. Why they can't acknowledge the red flags people are waving for a warning? Are they taking those roles to far when they can't hear the cries of the women and children?
I agree he is man - not perfect, etc. He may have a good heart. The humble nature of a Godly man is shown when they can admit they screwed up, and allow his ears to hear an opposing opinion. To stop and appreciate the Bride of Christ's tears, hurt, and brokenness over this issue. When they take her word seriously enough to realize their error.
Maybe then I can see the humble nature of this man. I'm sure he is very wise in other areas no doubt. He won't even stop long enough to listen. That to me is ego, and this case? He needs to repent, and see his error to the full extent. If he choices not to? He won't be safe to the abused parties within his fold.
I know I'm coming late to the discussion, but I was struck by Nick's comment that we need to use the Word to refute Piper's teaching on abuse.
Ironically (before actually answering that call by Nick) I have to point out that if we, as women, do declare what the Word says on the subject we are discounted. We are women, after all, and therefore, we don't know anything.
Worse yet, we are women with "an agenda" so everything we say is suspect. The fact of the matter is we are children of God who have had to go to our Abba Daddy for His direct guidance and wisdom because the church was not there to help us. But that wisdom, gained at great cost, is denied by those who are still in a position to speak and be heard by the masses.
One verse should be sufficiently striking in addressing Piper's advise to women to endure verbal abuse and only after physical abuse should they call the church for help. I Cor. 5:11 says the church is to put a "railer" out of the church and treat him as an unbeliever. A railer is a verbal abuser -- not a physical abuser.
But the Word says far more. It says that a man who doesn't provide for his family (and that provision, based on the whole teaching of the Word about a husband's responsibilities, includes more than money) he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Does the Word mean what it says?
An abuser is an unbeliever (regardless of a "profession of faith" and all the right "deeds" - this is the Word's judgment, not mine) and this puts a wife into the position of being married to an unbeliever (I Cor. 7) -- to whom she is not bound if he is not "pleased" to dwell with her. An abuser is not pleased to dwell with his victim. His is displeased with everything -- even if he refuses to remove himself from the house.
The Word says death and life are in the power of the tongue. Does the Word mean what it says? It says that a verbal abuser literally has the power to kill his wife and if you look at the medical evidence, research is now showing this to be true. I personally have experience life-threatening illness as a result of 20 years in church-sanctioned marital abuse, and I know many other women who have as well. Women end up with heart disease, cancer, and a huge host of other debilitating, chronic, and life-threatening diseases as a result of living in verbal abuse. And, surprise!, the Word actually says that is what will happen.
I would challenge Piper, et. al. (CBMW, etc.) to study the Word for themselves and see how God views oppression. That's a nice fancy Bible word for abuse, in case that fact is obscure somehow. See also what the Word says about the righteous standing for mercy and not judgment (mercy for the oppressed not the oppressor!!!) and how God desires that quality above sacrifice.
The Word has a lot to say about abuse, but our religious traditions have greyed out those passages and we just skim past them without realizing what they clearly say. It's not that the Word has nothing to say on the subject, it is that many leaders have been trained by religious tradition to have blind eyes so they cannot see what is there.
Danni
http://dannimoss.wordpress.com
I agree. It seems not only religious tradition, and in some aspect cultural. The culture has changed in some aspects, but not as much as everyone seem to believe. Culture doesn't just slam against gender, but other aspects such as race, faith, etc.
The religious culture at times isn't to much different than the worlds. They just seem to think it looks different.
AND THEY WILL KNOW WE ARE CHRISTIAN BY OUR LOVE>>> BY OUR LOVE!
I hear them say alot that we are equal in God's eyes, but have different roles. That's fine, but do we look at which party may not be stepping up to the plate? We need to acknowledge there is a bottleneck here, so we can work on that 'role' that needs to step up!
In this story - leadership is to protect! If the ones that need protecting say they don't feel it, and say they aren't grasping something - are they showing love by not listening? Telling us we don't understand the roles?
If they can acknowledge we are equal in God's eyes wouldn't it be acceptable to listen for a moment, and stop attempting to rebuke and teach?
To me that is pride and ego. Something God asks them to keep in check.
lol You want us to hush? Listen for a moment, and see the hurt in our hearts. When that is acknowledged, and attitudes change? Your 'hush' may just happen!
Since I am convinced that i am wasting my time by posting this, i probably will not be back to read any response. I only want to point out what you all know - that these arguments are not built on the content of the video nor on the content of the Bible. These arguments are built instead, it seems, on a rebellion against God's word and a need to drive traffic to your web sites (for effect i've opted not to promote my book or link my website). I don't get it! Women ought to be workers at home, subject to their own husbands, etc...that's pretty clear. Why fight against God's words rather than understand them? You could never conclude from this video that John Piper is promoting abuse or serving the "god of male domination". It is truly laughable - i really don't mean to be rude, but i just can't believe the tremendous leaps that must be made to support your arguments. I have no illusions that this post will change the minds of the 4 or 5 women going back and forth - rather i hope to encourage those who stumble upon this site and may not know what to think about all of this to think rationally and biblically. The roles of men and women are perfectly designed by God - they can be, like anything else, abused but our response to abuse should always be to seek restoration for the purpose of sanctification while longing for glorification. To say that anyone who abuses a spouse is not a believer is absurd - the bible is filled with believers who have committed violence or other hurtful acts. That is why we need Jesus! How elitist to think that your sins are less offensive to God that a man who abuses his wife? We all deserve death but God makes restoration available through the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross...even for abusive husbands! He has also given us the church for encouragement, support, and even protection. Everyone here needs to relax and pray for a proper understanding of God's Word!
This issue isn't about roles.
Its about safety, and it strange that ROLES keeps coming up. Its about the safety and welfare of the family members that are being attacked, and witnessing the attack. Why divert in such a manner?
If the protection portion was correct they would be asking wives to call the police for their protection, and not endure this. That is not to say the church can't get involved, but they can be the second call AFTER the police! We are talking illegal acts here! Not allowing consequences is called enabling.
Its not a lack of understanding of God's words by posters. Piper states that wives are not to submit to sin, and yet he says she will take a smack, and verbal abuse for a season. Last time I checked those were sins. If she is not to submit why does he not encourage her to seek protection? Being there and allowing it to happen via his advice is sin. You can't have it both ways. The message is contradicts what he has said in the past.
The bible also states we are responsible for the protection of the children. Is getting them the heck out of dodge at that moment, or allowing them to witness this the safest option? According to what he states - witnessing it. That also goes against what he has said in the past.
Sounds like he needs to go back and study God's word - as you do - because it doesn't waffle back and forth like that. God speaks of the abuse of power and leadership - are you saying those acts are NOT?
P.S. My blog isn't here for book promotion or income from blog traffic. lol so you are safe!
Anonymous said "The roles of men and women are perfectly designed by God...Women ought to be workers at home, subject to their own husbands, etc...that's pretty clear. Why fight against God's words rather than understand them?"
Why indeed. The roles anonymous is talking about are designed by man--focusing on wife submission and slavery to her husband. They are the traditions of man. Why is the husbands role of loving self-sacrificially changed to "authority over?" I echo anonymous's question: Why fight against God's words rather than understand them?
What I find very facinating in this discussion is that those who protest Piper's "solution," do not argue against wife submission, they are arguing against Piper not holding the husband accountable for sin, against Piper allowing violence in his congregation and then piously saying he doesn't allow violence.
But the "husband-is-the-authority" folk are the ones who keep insisting it is an issue of people refusing to obey their God-given biblical roles--of women who don't want to submit.
I find it amusing--yet sad--that they are correct in pointing out that people are not following God's role descriptions, but that they are blaming the wrong people. The HUSBAND'S role description is to love as Christ loved. As Romans 12:1-2 puts it, he is to be a "living sacrifice." Any authority a husband has is in being a servant to his wife, not in ordering her around.
So while one group protests the sin of abuse on the part of husbands, and the sin of Piper who permits and even fosters that abuse, the other group points the finger at those who encourage wives to refuse to encourage their hsbands to continue to sin against them. The first group maintains that sin is wrong. The second group insists that the first group needs to obey God's word about marital roles--but they are actually referring to man's word about marital roles. GOD'S word gives NO permission to husbands to school their wives, instead they are to give up their rights for their wives. And in Malachi 2 God specifically states that he hates a man committing violence against his wife.
The difficulty here is that those who teach husband authority have been taught this is what the BIBLE--God--teaches, and anyone who teaches otherwise is in rebellion against God. So when others point out this is not what the scripture says, that husbands are sacrifice for and love their wives, the knee-jerk reaction is to reject the very scripture that actually describes the husband's role. They insist on replacing that scripture with the doctrine of man. How sad.
Hannah: "and it strange that ROLES keeps coming up. Its about the safety and welfare of the family members that are being attacked, and witnessing the attack. Why divert in such a manner?"
It keeps coming up because people like Piper, Nick, and Anonymous have made an idol out of these roles. The idol is more important to support than the safty of the people involved. The idol must be upheld even if it means the destruction of a person.
Anonymous: "How elitist to think that your sins are less offensive to God that a man who abuses his wife? We all deserve death but God makes restoration available through the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross...even for abusive husbands!"
You assume a great deal here. We all deserve death. No kidding. The difference here is that a preacher in a high and respected position is smoothing over very serious sin and being more concerned for the authority of an abuser than the welfare of his family. An example he uses to show a woman'a reponse to being asked to engage in gross sin show's Piper's refusal to allow a woman her own, God-given voice. If a man suggests to his wife that she engage in group sex Piper's first and foremost concern is for the wife to uphold her husband's authority. She's not even allowed her own feelings. Piper crushes her voice and doesn't allow her to express herself as she ought to. She really ought to respond in shock, anger, hurt, and disgust. The last thing that should be on her mind is her husband's authority. Why? Because by asking her to do this, he has forfeited any spritual authority he may have had in the home.
Anonymous: "He has also given us the church for encouragement, support, and even protection. Everyone here needs to relax and pray for a proper understanding of God's Word!"
Yes, Anonymous. YOU DO NEED TO DO THAT. Because what you describe as proper understanding of God's word is completely improper. People who have made roles into idols have tunnel vision of scripture. All they see are a smattering of verses about submission and ignore truck load after truck load of verses that talk about judgement on oppressors.
Abusive men (and women, yes they exist too) are oppressors as defined by the Bible. And there are entire chapters, and even some books, in the Bible devoted to God's view of the oppressor. And it ain't pretty.
If you took all the wife submission verses and put them on one side of a balancing scale and took all the verses containing warnings and judgements concerning oppressors and put them on the other side of the balance, the side with oppression verses would hit the ground so hard it would leave a deep pit.
But to listen to role worshipers, you'd think the most important thing to God is a wife's submission. To listen to some, you'd think it was more important than what Jesus did on the cross. That if the wife doesn't submit, her very salvation is at risk.
Proverbs 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
Role obsession is a false balance.
It is nowhere near a proper understanding of God's word.
Mara R.
Ok, i just couldn't help it...i had to come back and see where this is going.
These latest posts are exactly what i was talking about. Emotion has scrambled the truth for Waneta and Mara (and others). Oh how sneaky the enemy is - our focus is on the safety of women and children while we stray (even if slightly) from God's Word...to the detriment of those women and children we want to protect. Let's keep all scripture on this topic in play here.
A man is not to abuse his wife - if he does, he sins against God and against his wife...no exceptions.
A man is to love his wife as Christ loved the church - laying His life down for her!! A man is to lay his life down for his wife - both in daily action and also literally if neccessary...no exceptions.
A women is to work at home and be subject to her own husband (sorry Waneta, those are not my words...try Titus 2) A wife is to submit to her husband as the Church submits to Christ(Ephesians 5)...no exceptions listed here either.
The thing we are forgetting about the Piper video is that he was answering a very specific question...not spewing a call to order your wife around. How does a women deal with her husband's sin while fulfilling God's call to submit to him? She is not auto-exempt from his authority the instant he sins against her. Piper's answer is exactly right! Remember - he is in a lose/lose situation here. You all pounced on his "giggle" in the beginning of the video...it is ridiculous to conclude that he was laughing at women being abused! He immediately recognized that he must answer an emotionally charged question in an extremly public setting. No one would argue that calling the police is wrong by the way, but better, or at least in addition, is to address the issue of sin with "the family". The goal should be repentance and sanctification - not neccessarily restraining orders, divorce, or jail. The only reason you ladies are arguing about this issue is that you are thinking like the world. You are arguing for your "rights". What right do you think you have? Each of our sins is why Jesus was slaughtered. Because we gossip He was beaten, because we lie He was hung on the tree, because we hate the nails were driven in, because we ate the fruit in the garden His life was ended. We slap Him in the face and spit on his atoning work every single day - He is the one with the rights! We have no rights except the massively glorious rights imputed to our account at the moment of regeneration. Physical abuse is horrible when committed by a man to his wife, but that same women (along with all other men and women) committed the unspeakable physical abuse in the torture and slaying of the Son of God. Swallow your pride and get some perspective! We should be praying for the abusive husband, excercising church discipline, and pleading that God would restore him - not getting angry, fighting back, or blogging about which of our rights were violated.
Hannah, you know, for some reason I can't get this out of my mind. This obsession that people have over roles.
This use of scripture by men to gain illegitamate power over women's souls... it's sick. It really is. It shows a fleshly, corrupt drive to dominate and perpetuate the system of the gentiles that Jesus so specifically spoke against.
Matthew 20:25 You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. vs 26 It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, vs 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; vs 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life (soul) a ransom for many.
These role worshipers trample the very words of Jesus Christ Himself in order to fulfill the words of Paul that they twist to mean something other than what Paul actually said.
Then they claim those who don't obey the the words of Paul (ignoring the words of Jesus) that they twist, warp, and pull out of context... they claim that those who do not trample over the words of Jesus along with them are in rebellion to God's word.
Paul also says in I Timothy 6:5 that there is "constant friction between people of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness (or religion) is a means of gain."
These men who trample the words of Jesus see some kind of 'gain' in the words of Paul. They think Paul's words contain what is needed to give them authority over their women because they are depraved in mind, love the world's systems of 'authority over' and are deprived of true.
This is why we stand so strong against Piper's words on this issue. He IS ignorant. He is deprived of truth on this one. He may have truth in other areas, but here he doesn't. He is far more concerned with his position of authority, and protecting it at all costs, than he is for the truth. And that concern is a fleshly, twisted, and depraved concern, not a godly one.
And you are right. It is killing children.
It is destroying souls. It is a stumbling block before little ones in faith.
The only thing more incredible than the men who push this doctrine, are the women who have swallowed this poison and now have a vindictive and jealous spirit toward those women who have not drank these toxic waters. It seems as though they are jealous of the freedom we have in Christ. And instead of joining in with this freedom bought for us by the Blood of Jesus and declared by the Words of Jesus, they want to pull us into the cesspool of 'men are lords and gods of the home' because they are so duped they think their salvation and pleasing God is so tightly wrapped up in these roles.
God help us, and help the church to get free of this depraved obsession over roles and who gets to be the boss of whom. Jesus said not to be obsessed with who is boss, yet role worshipers are consumed with it.
Mara R.
Anonymous:
I'll break my response into sections.
I don't think anyone likes to be talked down to. Coming across with a hint of superiority in your attitude doesn't get you far with anyone. Its rude for one thing, and its far from Christlike.
I'm sure you able to make your point minus those traits, and if you wish for others hear what you have to say? I would suggest that you stop, and think on that for a moment. You don't open ears or hearts with such a condescending manner.
This issue has nothing to do with women working in the homes, and submitting to her husband. To tell a woman or child that they don't have auto-exempt at that point when being harmed, because they still need to submit to him? Just HOW do you do that huh?
You have a man that clearly is being irrational, and has a motive to hurt. He is a criminal at this point, and acting as one. His role needs to go on the backburner for now, and safety is to take the forefront. Safety can't work otherwise. You all seem to have BLOCK in that area! Its not like he can't have it back! It seems that is the true fear here - not us!
I don't clearly don't understand what is HARD to grasp about that - seriously! You seem to concentrate MORE on his role being threatened than by the lack of safety the family is enduring at that point. Which do you feel would be MORE important to God at that time and place? During that episode ROLES is the last thing that needs to be spoken about. Getting yourself and your children out of the line of fire IS! Piper CLEARLY did not SAY THAT! Ding Ding Ding - PROBLEM!
The reason the police were mentioned? It was because he didn't. When he states that she must endure for that evening, and then contact the church? There is no clear signal from him that the police being called wouldn't be sin, or even in his mind at that point.
To say she should endure the wrath of her husband, and never mention her getting to safety to maybe escape additional blows, etc? He clearly didn't go near that, and for everyone to just assume that is what he meant? That is his error, and yours if you think most will gleam that from the message if they are being abused. That is his audience is it not? If so, DING DING DING problem!
We all have rights in Christ Anonymous. Men, Women and children! There are different types of them, and diverting in the fashion you did doesn't make your point very well. Diversion causes confusion, and that is not of God.
If you and Mr. Piper can't make your point any clearer than this there will always be confusion to the audience you seem to wish to address. In other words you will not be able to reach them. You can poo poo them off if you wish, or you can step back and listen for a moment and try again. Which do you feel Christ would have you do? Remember you aren't addressing families within a healthy environment. It may make great sense to heathly families, but those are NOT your audience at this point! Remember?
If you can't grasp that point very well just HOW do you plan to make people - families - feel safer about your defination of how you plan to deal with restoration?
In your position presently I can tell you the abuser will play you like a fiddle. You can take that as cutdown if you wish, but its not. It will be your reality.
To say that people are talking like the world? No. They are talking about the reality of their world, and you just are unwilling to accept that or listen to them. Remember the saying about walking in another's shoes - you are unwilling to even stop and think on that. That could be seen as a sign of arrogance. Your concentration is so focused on the brokeness of the women at this point that you are clearly blinded by the brokeness of the man.
I will tell you HE is going to love your little speech, and he use that to his advantage. In his mindset presently the enemy will have no problems showing him how to do this. YOU sir are playing right into his hands, and don't even realize it. Why? It seems because you can't take the blinders off long enough to listen and to stop scolding.
People that are abused - and that can be men, women or children - live in a world of doubt. They submit in unhealthy ways because of all kinds of dynamics within their lifes. They are used to approaching the abuser with a sugar sweet tone, because they will be harmed if they don't. That's not the purpose of the tone is it?
We all have people in our lifes that we know we should approach in such a way in order to get the results (for lack of a better word) we want. You can't read a person that is abusive in the same manner. One day they can be okay with the approach, and the next day they rage over it. Why? It keeps the people off balance, and that is their advantage. Why they need that advantage? I have no clue. That doesn't make it less of a reality.
Piper's approach will leave the abused party with MORE DOUBT, and feeling lost than before. You and Mr. Piper seem to be satisified with your approach, and are so concentrated on how offended you are to our response that you can't grasp WHY THEY WOULD BE! Ding Ding Ding - PROBLEM!
Your offense will NOT help those you seem to wish to help. I can't believe that would be your motive correct? Drop the scolding and speeches about roles, and worldly, etc and listen!
Its like when you go into another country, and they have cultural aspects you don't have clue about. My kids were trying to tell me once that in certain countries you need to burp to show the chef the meal was good. I have no clue if that is correct - I think they just like giggling over burps! Lets say it is true for a moment. You go to dinner, and the chef is offended due to NO BURP! You stand on your position that burping is RUDE! You refuse to listen about the culture, and take out your book on proper table etiquette. You tell THEM they are the ones that are being RUDE, and won't listen because you have the BOOK that says so! You aren't going to reach them very well on any level are you?
Drop the pride and listen! You aren't going to reach the abused parties you claim you wish to with your stand presently. That doesn't mean you can't have your ROLES, etc. There is no reason why you can't! NONE! You can still keep them! I have no issues with roles.
I have issue with people that refuse to come down off their mountain, and listen to the people of the valley. You aren't listening - you are to busy trying to be right. Talk about needing to shallow some pride here!
You can't learn about the culture of abusive household unless you stop to listen and learn. Preaching about your world and how you view it? Is it more important to bang heads or allow others to show you a world that is not like your own?
You can't help people if you don't understand their world. That's not going to change when you stubborning sit there on your computer, and seem to say you do. You can't apply NO BURPING to a burping world, and not expect some friction. Drop the etiquette and view culture Anonymous. I don't know how else I can explain it.
You can't help people if you clearly DON'T understand WHERE they are coming from! Drop the stereotypes - they don't apply if you want to see and help! What is more important? Understanding and helping - or sticking your rigid world and just thinking we are bitter? Is that bitterness going to be resolved in any fashion by your approach?
You are ready to write us off due to your pride and lack of perspective - and think you are so righteous in that position. Good Luck with those you claim you wish to help - don't know how you plan to reach them because your approach at this point? Its hardly cutting the mustard! In other words - you won't. Does your position seriously feel good about that?
I'm hardly angry at God. I'm not even angry at abusers. I'm angry at the ignorance that people are using, and think they are SO RIGHT in that. SO RIGHT that they refuse to see the harm they cause. THAT SIR is what I'm angry about. You don't bring people to Christ and Repentance, restoration in ignorance.
There are ways of doing just that, but not the avenue you are using? I think we both want the same thing - healing, restoration, repentance, etc. You can't apply your culture of family to one that is experiencing abuse and expect it to work. You will hurt those victims, and abuser will snow you but good! What did you solve? Not much!
The families silence afterwards in your world may make you feel better, but your ignorance over that silence didn't show any fruit. That is another aspect of the bible that is spoken about - you know besides the roles! There will be a reason they are silent, and you won't know why that is. Your sense of accomplishment will be in your head only. I won't go into that aspect, because you can't seem to understand the first step at this point.
You know what is frustrating? Not being heard no matter how you say something. I hear you, but you refuse to even listen to me.
Your diversions may make people doubt at the time, but that doubt isn't lasting. Parrotting points that has nothing to do with the issue does nothing but cause confusion. If you truly have the heart to help? Stop and listen. Try to view the world with a different pair of glasses as you do when you go into a different culture. You won't reach the world of abused families if you don't look at your approach. Why? They can't hear you. Ding Ding Ding! Problem!
You only see police, restraining orders and divorce - you are well ahead of the view we are talking about. We aren't even close to that point yet. You are jumping ahead, and missing a bottleneck. Most of the time? Believe it or not victims don't want that either. Despite the stereotypical responses you are willing to put out there. They are scared to death, and talking about THEIR role at this point? You will lose more than you gain. There is a reason for that as well. Why not figure out that mystery that is part of human nature, instead the worry about your roles. Figure that out instead of parrotting scripture. If you can you may accomplish what you are ultimate goal is. HEY you won't get any article like this either! WOW a second goal accomplished! Wouldn't that be awesome!
If you don't post this one, Hannah, I understand. it may not be the direction you want to go. Just thought I'd throw in something Anonymous wasn't aware of.
Anonymous: "A women is to work at home and be subject to her own husband (sorry Waneta, those are not my words...try Titus 2) A wife is to submit to her husband as the Church submits to Christ(Ephesians 5)...no exceptions listed here either."
And guess what, you missed one.
Colosians 3:18 Also tells wives to be subject to their own husbands.
The Bible says that in the presence of two or three witnesses a matter is established. And since this is mentioned in three places it's pretty much set in stone. Some might say that since Paul is the one who wrote all three of these, that his witness, by itself, is only one witness and doesn't count in the 'need two or three witnesses' clause. But let's not split hairs. We'll take Paul's three separate letters as three different witnesses.
No exceptions, right?
Well, since the full counsel of the word it so very important to you, I must bring to your attention an ignored command in the Bible that men don't obey. And it is mentioned FOUR times in the Bible, so more than meet the criteria for being a command to obey with NO exceptions since it also does not allow for any.
That is the command of greeting one another with a holy kiss. It is mentioned in FOUR different letters written by Paul.
Romans 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
I Corinthians 16:20 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
II Corinthians 13:12 Greet one antoher with a holy kiss.
And lastly I Thes 5:25 Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss.
Sorry, Anonymous. Those are not my words. They are clearly stated in the Bible in black and white. Yet somehow, even though it is mentioned more times than the wife submit scriptures, men think it doesn't apply to them. Why do you think that is?
Oh, I know why. Because men think they have the 'right' to not obey this command. Men are thinking like the world. Guys don't greet each other in bars with a kiss. They don't greet each other at the big game with kisses, not to mention when they get together for Superbowl Sunday.
But what makes men in the church think they can get away without obeying this clear command from the scriptures. They must stop thinking like the world and being over concerned for their personal rights and personal comfort zone.
Isn't that right, Anonymous.
And now I know that since I have revealed to you this command and how important it is to obey it rather than look good or hang onto rights... And since I know by your words, how important the Word of God is to you and how important to you that others obey the parts of it that aren't always comfortable to obey... I expect you to go to your next Bible study or next Sunday morning service and greet your brothers with a holy kiss. No exceptions since none are allowed in the scriptures.
I'll be waiting to hear how that goes for you.
God bless you as you proceed to the next level of obeying the letter of the law and putting down the notion that you have any personal rights.
Mara
Unfortunately, those raised within this worldview may come to find a government who feels safer, more protective, more comforting than the God promoted by these teachers.
http://www.ovw.usdoj.gov/domviolence.htm
Its that a sad state of affairs! Yikes! Very telling isn't it!
'''God help us, and help the church to get free of this depraved obsession over roles and who gets to be the boss of whom. Jesus said not to be obsessed with who is boss, yet role worshipers are consumed with it.'''
Mara:
Yes Jesus seemed to be clear on 'boss' deal when the disciplines asked him about it. He doesn't seem to concentrate so much on WHO (humans) you are to submit (another human), and reminding people that they are to leaders of the home (human as well), etc. He pretty much stated to worry about your own role first and foremost, and to serve others in love. Reminding your spouse that you have the last word is lording it over them, and that to me is against scripture. I feel you need to pray more until you can come to some sort of compromise. You should be able to do that within a healthy relationship. That would show the love and respect for each other, and reminders are not needed.
When you blind yourself so much due to your leadership - thinking that is the upmost importance all the time - you miss huge opportunities to serve others as Christ has called us to do.
Piper is a facilitator of abusers and therefore a contributer to abuse in the body of Christ. He needs to repent.
Don Johnson
You have to wonder if he realizes this Don. I do agree with you. As someone says, his 'blue lenses' need to be taken off first.
It really makes me sick that they put the "leadership" of the abuser above compassion and justice for the oppressed victim. Who is the God of the Bible for but the oppressed? Who are we to speak for but the oppressed? Verbal abuse is just as damaging as physical abuse - the Bible says "Life and death are in the power of the tongue". Words wound and kill. I know - not from an abusive husband, but from a verbally abusive, spiteful, vengeful, manipulative mother. There are those who would say I should stay in a relationship with her - people who have no idea what it does to a person's spirit.
Anonymous 39 you are exactly right! My Mom says she still lives with seeing the fear in our, her Children's eyes, when my siblings and I were growing up. She is happy now married to my Step Dad, who is a wonderful Man, for over 30 years, yet still she is haunted by that memory. We were her young Children and She can't enjoy happy memories for the most part.
Your poor mother Anonymous 40. She needs to learn to forgive herself. Its time!
The problem with this kind of twisted dogma is that it denies women what Jesus died for: full freedom. Life to the full. Peace and joy and the will of God that all things be worked out for their best. It's also very ANTI-BIBLICAL because it dumps extended interpretations on a few verses while ignoring the 1001 other verses that directly contradict those interpretations. Now which is more important? Word of those people or word of God?
Placing too much importance on a wife's submission enslaves them both to a 'law' and to another person, and Paul says we mustn't do either. Not only does Ephesians 5: 21 say that both a husband and wife should OBEY EACH OTHER but EVERY TIME Paul recommends that wives submit, he IMMEDIATELY pairs it with husbands love your wives and treat them as you would yourself. In short: treat them as equal to you, and how you'd want to be treated. Why? Because women are 'joint heirs to the kingdom'. Because 1 James says do not treat one person as more important than another. Because in Christ there is no difference between male or female, slave or master etc. Because God created both male and female in his image and said that THEY shall rule over the earth. Not man, with woman supporting him. Them both, as equals, flesh of one's flesh and bone of one's bone.
Husbands are supposed to love their wives like Jesus would. THAT'S what women are to submit to. That's the context of their submission. A man's ONLY authority is to take care of his wife and children - any sinful, hurtful or neglective behaviour DOES NOT FALL UNDER GOD-GIVEN AUTHORITY. EVER. IT IS SIN AND NO MORE. And all, ALL Christians are supposed to fight sin, no matter what.
God does not support sinful behaviour under any context. He allows it sometimes for reasons of training and discipline, but would NEVER say that a husband has the authority to abuse, dominate, control or restrict the freedoms of his wife. NOBODY HAS THAT RIGHT AND THE BIBLE NEVER EVER SAYS ITS OKAY.
ALL Christians are expected to correct each other in the faith. Help and guide each other according to the Spirit, which is a spirit of love, strength, joy and wisdom by the way. Whether you're a husband or a wife doesn't matter, because you've been joined together as one in marriage anyway. At the end of the day a wife's ultimate Husband is Jesus, who loves her too much to say she should submit to suffering at the hands of her husband.
I love how people say that you need to know more about Piper to make a judgment. You don't I've listened to about 100 of his sermons and more context just makes him WORSE. Never let these idiots make you question your position on this. Women Submission is an inherent evil anyways.
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