I was reading a summary of Egalitarian and Complementarian views written by Bruce Ware. I don't know about anyone else, but this man reminds of a politician. Someone brings up an objection to something they hold dear, and they claim they will explain their position. Politicians know how to spin things so they don't actually answer anything. They throw out diversion and smokescreens.
Objection: This complementarian understanding is in reality a fully hierarchical view, with women subordinate to men, and as such it is intolerable and contrary to the freedom of the gospel. While it claims to uphold the essential equality of women with men, it in fact leads inevitably to seeing women as inferior, as second-class citizens, who are not as important to God and His purposes as are men.
Response: Would you feel the same way about a parent/child relationship? Or of the relationship between an employee and his/her supervisor? Do you believe we should eliminate all manifestations of relational hierarchy, as demeaning to those under the authority of another? Relationships within authority structures surround us. We live and work in them every day. We would have utter chaos without them. But such authority structures do not entail the greater human value or essential superiority of those in charge, or minimize the human value or imply the essential inferiority of those under their charge. Furthermore, if we are correct to think of the Trinity as analogous to the male/female relationship, consider this: surely the Scriptures do not intend to suggest Christ is inferior in value to the Father because He came only to do His Father's will. Likewise, the Scriptures do not intend to suggest that women are inferior to men because of male-headship. In fact, just the opposite is true, viz., men and women only experience their full humanity when they function in the manner God intended in His creation of them. We are most free as humans when we affirm the legitimate authority structure God intended, and work within that.
When we look at the relationship of parent and child there comes a time in which being subordinate to the parents does end. The same goes for the employee and their supervisor.
I suppose I can throw out a complementarian response about wives! The wife’s submission to the husband ends in death. So her subordinate role could end as well.
When we look at families in which a husband (lets say by death) is no longer present. According to their approach their family would be in utter chaos with the husband not present as the authority figure. Remember NO authority - chaos!
I think most of us have come across families where a spouse died (as in my example), and utter chaos wasn’t present just due the absence of the parent.
Since I personally don’t believe that most complementary followers believe that egalitarians follow what they suggest? Why they need to use sarcasm and basically the smoke screen I truly don’t understand. There really isn’t any common sense or rational reasoning there.
I think the biggest issue I have with these types of approaches is the diversion tactics they use NOT to deal with the objection given. They truly never approached this in a direct manner, but filled the response with fluff that hasn’t nothing to do with the principal referred to in the objection.
We see this in politics all the time, and it doesn’t matter which side of politics you care for. They all do it at one time or another. It’s the nature of beast with some within that arena.
If you look closely all they really said was, “What you don’t like any authority at all, because it will make you feel inferior? You really want to LIVE in a world with no authority?”
Is that what the objection was saying? No. It didn’t even go near that.
Why assume then? It goes with their mantra that they consistently repeat, and I suppose they assume most will follow. Where they run into problems is ‘consistently repeating’ something that has nothing to do with the principal in question, AND still it DOESN’T make people ‘understand’. My guess is the confuse people so much with the fluff that they never question it.
In a nutshell? Mr. Ware's response made absolutely no sense at all.
We as Christ Followers are to go by the leading of the Holy Spirit to help guide us in life. The Holy Spirit shows us the path that is intended, and for God’s purpose to be fulfilled. It’s custom made for each individual, and the role will be custom as well.
Stating: We are most free as humans when we affirm the legitimate authority structure God intended, and work within that.
If complementarian’s truly wish to follow a fully hierarchical view? The leading of the Holy Spirit trumps this ‘authority’ they claim males have. Remember, ‘Now as the church submits to Christ’? WELL both the Holy Spirit and Christ are above them on the hierarchical chain of command.
NO! I’m not suggesting you use that of course. I was following the same line of thinking they used. My nonsense could be easily applied as well to the theory they presented above!
Are they willing to live within that? I have this strange feeling he would have the 'authority' to tell her she is misrepresenting her nudge. The way this belief system is setup is that if the husband is indeed wrong? The pressure from the church community will be upon this woman to listen to her husband anyway.
Why? The Trinity's view of 'authority' in this realm is different. I mean if it were the same? The Holy Spirit would be getting into the middle of this conversation to 'remind' the man WHO is in charge! Who TRULY has the last word!
If that is the way it is suppose to work within marriages - because of the 'hierarchical structure' of the Trinity that we are mirror? Something is majorly wrong here. Something isn't working. We all know that mere mortals do make mistakes, and someone from the above isn't coming down to remind them in that fashion.
I wonder if I keep repeating it enough times people will just follow along? It’s about as accurate as their theory! YES, I made it sound silly on purpose. Wonder if anyone would buy it though?
Hmm.
Nah! Lets just follow what was written in scripture. We can wait for complementarian’s to actually answer the question if we truly need to change our beliefs. The smoke screen just doesn’t do it for most. We have to wait to see if the diversions will stop, and to see if an answer actually ever surfaces.
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3 comments:
"I have this strange feeling he would have the 'authority' to tell her she is misrepresenting her nudge. The way this belief system is setup is that if the husband is indeed wrong? The pressure from the church community will be upon this woman to listen to her husband anyway.
Why? The Trinity's view of 'authority' in this realm is different. I mean if it were the same? The Holy Spirit would be getting into the middle of this conversation to 'remind' the man WHO is in charge! Who TRULY has the last word!"
Wow! Nailed it! Who indeed.
Hannah and Anonymous,
you are right. The Holy Spirit does get the last word. But often husbands don't recognize it as the Holy Spirit. They think it is "bad things happening to good people." Or they may even think the bad things are happening because the wife didn't submit enough! God does indeed get the "last laugh," but in the end, the wife has probably been hurt so much by her husband's claim to trump the Holy Spirit that she is not laughing.
And Ware's response: How can he compare a marriage to a parent/child relationship unless one of the parties is indeed being treated as a child? Now THAT is telling indeed! Parent and child are equals in God's eyes, too, right? They just have different roles.
Jesus said the servant is not greater than his master. Jesus understood that the employer is superior to the employee, that the parent is superior to the child. Why don't the comps understand that? Why don't they understand that their teaching makes husbands superior to wives, too? One-way submission/subjection/obedience results in superiority/inferiority, rather than equality. BTW, notice that Paul does not say "There is neither parent nor child, young or old." He says "There is neither male nor female."
Boy you said a mouth full! lol! To true!
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