Diversion and Smoke Screens

I was reading a summary of Egalitarian and Complementarian views written by Bruce Ware.  I don't know about anyone else, but this man reminds of a politician.   Someone brings up an objection to something they hold dear, and they claim they will explain their position.  Politicians know how to spin things so they don't actually answer anything.  They throw out diversion and smokescreens.

Objection: This complementarian understanding is in reality a fully hierarchical view, with women subordinate to men, and as such it is intolerable and contrary to the freedom of the gospel. While it claims to uphold the  essential equality of women with men, it in fact leads inevitably to seeing women as inferior, as second-class citizens, who are not as important to God and His purposes as are men.

Response: Would you feel the same way about a parent/child relationship? Or of the relationship between an employee and his/her supervisor? Do you believe we should eliminate all manifestations of relational hierarchy, as demeaning to those under the authority of another? Relationships within authority structures surround us. We live and work in them every day. We would have utter chaos without them. But such authority structures do not entail the greater  human value or essential superiority of those in charge, or minimize the human value or imply the essential inferiority of those under their charge. Furthermore, if we are correct to think of the Trinity as analogous to the male/female relationship, consider this: surely the Scriptures do not intend to suggest Christ is inferior in value to the Father because He came only to do His Father's will. Likewise, the Scriptures do not intend to suggest that women are inferior to men because of male-headship. In fact, just the opposite is true, viz., men and women only experience their full humanity when they function in the manner God intended in His creation of them. We are most free as humans when we affirm the legitimate authority structure God intended, and work within that.

When we look at the relationship of parent and child there comes a time in which being subordinate to the parents does end.  The same goes for the employee and their supervisor.

I suppose I can throw out a complementarian response about wives!  The wife’s submission to the husband ends in death.  So her subordinate role could end as well.

Tickle for Tuesday!

Women Keep Silent!

1 Corinthians 14

I was watching a very interesting video clip on youtube that someone had pointed out.  Paul was speaking with the church in Corinth.  I'm sure most of us realize at that point there was no actual church building, and services were held in different places.  It must have been an exciting and scary time all bundled into one. 

1 Corinthians 14:23-25 GNB  (23)  If, then, the whole church meets together and everyone starts speaking in strange tongues---and if some ordinary people or unbelievers come in, won't they say that you are all crazy?  (24)  But if everyone is proclaiming God's message when some unbelievers or ordinary people come in, they will be convinced of their sin by what they hear. They will be judged by all they hear,  (25)  their secret thoughts will be brought into the open, and they will bow down and worship God, confessing, "Truly God is here among you!"

I have to admit I think Paul has a point here.  Can you imagine being invited to learn more about Christianity, and you walk into the gathering placing with chaos going on?  

Among this group of people everyone is doing their own thing at the same time!

IN THIS CORNER - you have people speaking languages you don't understand!

IN the other CORNER - you have people praying and stating what God is doing in their life!

IN the center of the ring - you have people SINGING his praises!

Not very inviting is it?  I can see how people would think they are all crazy.  ALL these people doing their own thing at the same time - chaos!

Paul spoke about how this group in Corith needs to worship in an orderly fashion, so that those within the worship circle - and those newcomers can be edified, uplifted, and understand what God wishes to reveal to them.

1 Corinthians 14:26-31 GNB  (26)  This is what I mean, my friends. When you meet for worship, one person has a hymn, another a teaching, another a revelation from God, another a message in strange tongues, and still another the explanation of what is said. Everything must be of help to the church.  (27)  If someone is going to speak in strange tongues, two or three at the most should speak, one after the other, and someone else must explain what is being said.  (28)  But if no one is there who can explain, then the one who speaks in strange tongues must be quiet and speak only to himself and to God.  (29)  Two or three who are given God's message should speak, while the others are to judge what they say.  (30)  But if someone sitting in the meeting receives a message from God, the one who is speaking should stop.  (31)  All of you may proclaim God's message, one by one, so that everyone will learn and be encouraged.

To me he is saying everyone must take turns.  

If someone is nudged by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues, then someone must interpret to the others what is being said.  If no one can interpret what is being said they are asked to be silent, and speak only to God at that point.  Paul earlier in this chapter mentioned the reasons why this is done.  The worship is for the benefit of all in attendance, and if you can't understand what the person is saying?  What benefit are you receiving?  The Holy Spirit may be working in this person, but if you can't understand the message?

Everyone is encouraged to speak, and share one by one so that the group as a whole is edified, uplifted, and encouraged.

1 Corinthians 14:32-35 GNB  (32)  The gift of proclaiming God's message should be under the speaker's control,  (33)  because God does not want us to be in disorder but in harmony and peace. As in all the churches of God's people,  (34)  the women should keep quiet in the meetings. They are not allowed to speak; as the Jewish Law says, they must not be in charge.  (35)  If they want to find out about something, they should ask their husbands at home. It is a disgraceful thing for a woman to speak in a church meeting.

The final portion of this scripture has been questioned over and over.  It tends to contradict Paul's message though out the bible, and in this section of scripture as well. Why would Paul said everyone need to take turns sharing with the group so they can learn and be uplifted - then say only means PART of the crowd that has gathered can do so?

One interesting note I took from the video was there was no law of submission at the time.  For me personally?  I thought of Ephesians 5.  That references submission right?  I found the problem with that is Ephesians had not even been written yet.  It would be at least 5-7 years down the road before it was written.  It was also interesting that there was no law about submission of women mentioned in the bible prior, and that for people causes confusion about this verse. 

They had mentioned that this portion of scripture is placed in different spots in different manuscripts they had found for scripture as well.  So was it intended to be placed here in the first place?  Why would he encourage everyone to share, and then say to the women to be silent?  There are plenty of theories.

To me one makes more sense when you view the nature of God, Jesus, and YES even Paul!  Paul speaks of order, and states that one person that is nudged by the Holy to either speak in tongues, prophecy, edify, etc you are to take turns.  If one speaks in tongues and no one can interpret?  Be silence.  It could mean that next time you get together for worship if you are nudged again someone WILL be able to interpret, and all can benefit from this.  It certainly doesn't mean sit down and hush forever!

I was reading a story from someone that had family in China, and they were missionaries.  This was a time in history when the Chinese women were kept at home, and their feet were bound for vanity purposes.  When the family came to hear the worship service these women didn't understand the Etiquette of worship.  They would be speaking to other women during the service to catch up on things.  Yes it was chaos!  When the worship service was finished?  A family member of the missionaries said something along the lines of, "WOW we are back in the Corith Church!"

I'm sure at the time some women understood the etiquette of worship, and others didn't know this.  I know at first when I learned about this I was thinking mostly Jewish women would be in attendance.  They had been in their section within the temples, and had viewed a form of etiquette.  I didn't stop to think about the fact they welcomed Gentiles at that point.  You had people from all walks of life attending these worship gatherings.  Some of course wouldn't have the first clue about etiquette of worship, and I can understand WHY they would ask them to be silent due to the chaos they would cause.

It was the same principal I had for my children when we were at church, and the bread and the wine were being presented.  I wanted to make sure my children understood WHY this was being done, and made sure they KNEW what they were doing.  I'm sure it looked FUN from the outside to them, but they needed to understand the meaning before I allowed them to participate.  They needed to be old enough to grasp this.  That was important to me, and I'm sure when they were young they didn't quite understand why MOM wasn't allowing them to participate in this 'fun time' at church.  I wanted them to be mature enough to understand.  It was more than, 'WOW we get to eat bread and drink grape juice this morning!" 

Anyway, it would make sense to me that until these women understand how to function within worship gatherings they were to keep silent.  I don't believe that Paul meant that women were to keep silent always, because we see women in the bible mentioned participating in ways they couldn't if they had to keep silent.

I realize some today use this verse to say if women do participate - and not be silent - THEY are in charge.  This is just plain silly.  Paul was asking people to take turns, and there wasn't anyone 'in charge' in that sense.  The principal to me for this worship was to grow in the faith, and not be IN charge.  They were there to edify each other, and to be led by the Holy Spirit.  Paul speaks in different places in the bible about women sharing and teaching the faith, and it wasn't about a power struggle as most like to present it.  It was to learn and to grow in the faith, and how much more important is that compared to some human realm of power.

This passage in scripture was speaking more on the orderly fashion that the worshipers should follow so that chaos didn't erupt, and also that people were not using the church for their own personal gains.  It speaks more about that, but there are those that tend to just concentrate on 'woman need to be silent and sit down'.  

If you think about that part?  They truly need to check their heart!  It tends to be more out of selfish motive, and its clear when they open their mouths to explain this passage.  Their motive is also spoken about in this passage.  When the Holy Spirit is moving inside of an individual, and it is shared?  God is blessing us with this message, and it is from HIM that it comes.  It truly has nothing to do with gender.

Modesty - its much more than clothes

I remember as a young girl the town next door just opened a sports center. My parents felt it would be a great idea for myself, and my brother to learn how to play tennis. The next thing I know I got a tennis racket for my birthday with Billie Jean King's autograph on it. It was actually pretty exciting for me at the time.

I remember the first day for my very FIRST tennis lesson. It was summer time, and my brother and I walked everywhere - or rode our bikes. I had my tennis racket in hand, and my tennis outfit my mother got me as well. I walked along the busy streets on the sidewalk to get to the indoor sports center where my lessons were being held.

The next thing I know is a car full of men were whistling and cat calling out to me. At that point I had already hit the area where there were many stores, and I remember this surge of fear at the time. I was looking around for a place of safety, and was afraid to finish my walk to the sports center for my lesson.

The next thing I know the street light changed on the main street I was trying to cross, and their car moved forward. I noticed they had made a U turn at their very first opportunity, and I ran into the department store on the other side of the street. I remember hiding behind the first display that was available, and at the same time watching to see if that car full of men would follow me into the store.

To say I was scared at the time was a huge under statement. My stomach was turning over in knots, and I was thinking of what my next move would be if they indeed came into the store I had just escaped into.

At the time behind all the stores in the area were farm fields behind them, or small areas of homes. I knew the sports center wasn't far at this point, and I decided I was going to finish my journey through the fields. I was to frighten to finish it along the main road.