Thursday, August 02, 2012

Jack Schaap's domino effect, and a note of support for survivors

Posted by Hannah at 4:36 PM

Domino effectLast night at Jack Schaap’s former church they had a special church service to inform their members about what is going on.  No doubt some are downright heartbroken, and other’s quite shell shocked.  I doubt Jack Schaap stopped long enough to realize the domino effect this would have on people.

Let’s start with one aspect of the fighting that has already started. 
Move on to Prayers for all involved.
Questions and Issues with David Gibb’s Request to Victims
End with some encouragement and resources.

The fighting has already started!

The fighting over the age of the girl has already started.  The age of this young adult should only matter to the justice system, and should not have any bearing to those lifes Jack Schaap’s touched.   I’m sure some will use the excuse of her legal age presently to downplay the fact even at age 18?  You are still messing with a child.  They would still call her a child after all if this had not happened.  Its no different now.

Some news stories thus far have stated that this act of adultery and/or sexual abuse started when she was 16 or 17 years of age.  The FBI has stepped into it due to the fact he may have crossed state lines with her.  Some IBF boards are stating that Jack Schaap’s secretary drove her there.   It seems that doesn’t make a hill of beans difference at this point.  They fired the secretary as well.  We may never really know what happened completely.

Personally, from my viewpoint?  The real sicko’s are the ones that have already started to blame the girl in question.  When you are that young you don’t know much about the world yet, and especially within the faith bubble.  You have not figured out how to handle the contradicting messages of how men are the authorities, and how you can escape with a ‘no’ while keeping face within your faith community.  Its hard for adults after all even in less serious circumstances! 

Most young adults – experienced in the world or not – have a hard time grappling with circumstances such as these.    Its sad that some would rather live in denial of this known fact when they were dealing with this type of sin, and they feel its time to circle the wagons against the world.  It shows the foundation is not very solid.  Adults are to guide young people for a reason, and when they ignore those reasons when it gets too tough?  When its easier to blame the youth?  Its sad that they choose childish ways, and not be the mature adults they say they are.

In a way…  Their maturity level isn’t much different from the child’s is it?  Their age is the only difference when it comes to being able to throw that blame somewhere else so they don’t have to deal with it.  Its called blame shifting.  I think they are just scared, and obviously unfit.

I’m sure Jack Schaap’s wife and family are reeling about now.  This ton of bricks just came down on their world, and I’m sure they felt they were immune from it.  They had Jack preaching against this type of evil, and placed himself in the position of the ‘go to man’ if you have any questions, issues, or struggle with it.  His wife already had plenty of hurt from the past when her own father had his own scandal, and how she has another one up closer and more personal. 

Personal feelings aside for Jack Schaap?  I have prayed for all of them.  I will admit at first it was only his family, and his church family.  God kept nudging me all day yesterday, and I finally just agreed with him!  (giggles) Funny how that happens?!  I finally prayed for everyone as I know God would wish me too.

Huge Concern about David Gibbs Request

I have a huge concern over the meeting last night at their church.  David Gibbs is the lawyer the church asked to come and speak.  He basically is asking if other victims are present he wants them to come to him at this time.  Some have mentioned they are getting phone calls from the church reminding them of this request.  He is the church’s lawyer and not their counselor.  Red Flags started to fly when I read his quotes from the newspapers.

The police are the first ones that need to be notified, and not David Gibbs.  His first loyalty due to his profession would be to his client – the church.  He was brought there to protect the church.  He isn’t there to protect the victims.  That is not his first priority.  I have a link at the end of the post that explains more of why he isn’t a good ‘go to’ person, and its from the viewpoint of a legal eagle not associated with this scandal.

Mr. Gibbs is the same lawyer that stood by Chuck Phelps during the Tina Anderson trial.  He was there to protect the church then as well.  He wasn’t there to protect Ernie Willis or Tina Anderson.  He wanted to be there in case of trouble for Pastor Phelps, or for Trinity Baptist.

No doubt the church has some legal concerns.  That is why he is there.  I would not recommend victims go to him, because he is legally obligated to be representing his client first and foremost.  That is how the profession works.

The Defense Attorney, (Gibbs) will want to conduct his own investigation.  Gibbs, or an individual called a defense investigator.  A defense investigator works for the defense attorney on the behalf of the accused.
My prosecutor friend warned, “The defense, like the police, may electronically record conversations without the victims knowledge or consent. Defense attorney’s or defense investigators, like police investigators, may legally use deception to obtain information. A victim of a sexual offense who wants no contact with a defense investigator may simply notify the defense investigator orally or in writing. If you are a victim of a sexual  offense, after this notification the defense attorney or the defense investigator may not attempt further contact with [the victim]  unless the victim initiates the contact. – Quote from Chuckles Travels

If victims don’t wish to speak to the police?  They need to find other sources of help OUTSIDE their church family to help them with this.  The church family is shell shocked, and may not be the best place to help.  Its not a cut down – it is what it is.  We are all human.

Godly Response To Abuse within The Christian Environment – Or G.R.A.C.E.   GRACE is a private, non-profit organization that provides training, technical assistance and publications to assist the Christian community in responding to the sin of child abuse.  They are also a good source of help for families and victims in need of help – even just an ear to listen.  Organizations like this are distanced enough to be a blessing to others.

When Love Sees You (love = Jesus)
But I remember distinctly being told by Jack Hyles, while being counseled in his office (and he was always a perfect gentleman to me, and I considered him my friend) as a college student, that I was a “second line girl.”
In identifying and categorizing me thus, he was making the point that I, a child of a broken home who had been abandoned by her father and whose mother had been married three times, and who wasn’t on the “cradle roll” at a Baptist church from the day I was born, was not as good as, for example, Linda Hyles or Cindy Hyles or the Lewis sisters or any other of the endless supply of “first line girls” who filled the rank and file of born-and-bred First Baptist kids. – quote from survivor

Some Places of Worship deal with Sexual Sins better than others

The above quote breaks my heart.  When people look at others as such?  It leaves them vulnerable for others to take advantage of them.   It should not be so within the church, and sadly at times it is.  I’m so thankful that our Lord Jesus Christ does not agree with such sentiments.  For the person this could be another domino in their domino effect of their life.  Jesus can help you!

(Lyric from the above video – Jesus speaking….)
Hand me the Pieces
Broken and Bruised
And I’ll show you what Love sees
When love sees you!

In the human realm people that are not on the ‘first line’ or on the ‘cradle roll’?  Others may easily look at them as suspect.  When they bring forth a hurt, an abuse, or any ugly sin?  They can’t see others as the child of God in the way that he would wish.  It’s sad that they have jaded their hearts in that fashion.

I give you the above video as a reminder of God’s love for all of his body.  There is no first line or cradle roll for him.

I know many people may say all sins are the same, don’t cast the first stone, don’t allow anger because it is bitterness….

God does get upset and anger when injustices, maltreatment, etc. do happen.  When I see people using one sentence of scripture when something awful happens?  I honestly don’t think they know how to deal with it.  Afterwards?  They don’t want others too either.  They would rather you just hush.

Anger is going to happen, but you can’t allow yourself to marinate in it.   When people are to broken at times anger is the only thing that allows them to speak up and ask for help.  It is at that point when they have had enough, and they finally reach out.    Anger may come and go, and we can’t forget that anger at times motivates and brings change.

If you go to far?  You will be forgiven if you ask forgiveness from him.   He knows we are human, and he also knows how hard we try.  He will give us that credit when due even when humans will not allow it.  His opinion is the only one that is important, and he will walk with you when no one else will.

God allows his people to fuss and remain faithful. Such is the case when King David furrows his brow and huffs:
God, I wish you would kill the wicked!
Get away from me, you murderers!
They say evil things about you.
Your enemies use your name thoughtlessly.
Lord, I hate those who hate you;
I hate those who rise up against you.
I feel only hate for them;
they are my enemies (Psalm 139:19–22, NCV).
Please if you have been hurt?  God wishes you to find healing.  It doesn’t matter if it is Jack Schaap’s domino effect presently, or something completely unrelated.  He allows us fellowship with others to help, and he will always be our backbone!

My prayers are with your all.

The legacy of Jack Hyles

SNAP – Sexual Abuse Organization  (You don’t have to be Catholic)

National Association Against Child Sexual Abuse

We Love You, those that are Victim(s) of Jack Schaap – Facebook page with other referrals for help or support

WARNING ALL POTENTIAL SCHAAP VICTIMS: David Gibbs Is the Defense Attorney for Jack Schaap - A current sex crimes prosecutor was consulted with the writing of this post

Lake County Sheriff Department
   2293 North Main Street,
   Crown Point, Indiana 46307
   Phone:  (219) 775-3300
   Federal Bureau of Investigation – Chicago
   2111 W. Roosevelt Road
   Chicago, IL 60608
   Phone: (312) 421-6700

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Anonymous said...

Thanks for the mention. You wrote a great post on this subject.

Anonymous said...

I myself finally came out from under a legalistic, arrogant, narcissistic pastor from a fundemental Baptist church in Sierra Vista az who ruled as tho he was God himself in Gods church.. He let his sons openly be abusive and mean to other members, bus kids, etc and said oh there just bein boys.. if you were not in his click of fav ppl you were judged by a different set of standards and considered not good enough.. When brave members finally had the courage to leave, the Pastor would blast them from the pulpit and the members remaining would shun you like you had a disease and say God will curse you for goin against the Pastor... It's a cult in many of these type of churches, when a Pastor has so much pride that comes from the power he holds and the ppl get convinced they are Gods special elite under this Pastor... HE'S ONLY A MAN NOT GOD.. I pray Gods mighty hand brings justice....

Anonymous said...

Lucifer is sniping now. The Lord is coming back soon. Don the armor and sword of the Lord, because the devil isn't messing around with long-term campaigns. I too, will pray for the Schapp's and all men and women of God. It's a heck of a time to be a believer, awesome and profound, but we're all high-priority targets now! Hang in there believers... we're almost home.

Anonymous said...

People need to stop throwing all their advice out there for these people. You do as much damage as the hurt they are already going through. Those outside do not know all the circumstances and facts so they need to shut up! They also need to stop bringing up Jack Hyles who was never proved guilty and all those so-called quotes from people, many were lies. It is sad that a dead man will always be remembered of a crime he didn't commit. We don't serve people, we serve God. Men fall. It is not the time to condemn anyone but pray for all involved. Stop judging people when you only have part of the story and the part you have, you don't even know is true. You hurt the cause of Christ. I feel sorry for God. We are hurting winning the lost when we stand around talking about issues that don't involve us. Hurt for them, pray for them but they don't need your advice either.

Anonymous said...

This is a horrible sin, and our hearts go out to all the people involved, especially the victim.

One of the few things that bothered me about your post (though I liked much of it), was when you indirectly or directly mentioned that Jack Hyle's legacy would be tainted...First of all, it's not about legacies, and secondly...every man is responsible for his own sin.

I appreciate the internet for MANY reasons, but one thing that is HORRIBLE about the internet is that people can make comments that have no backing, and just because it is GOOGLED UP, people take it as SCRIPTURE (mainly referring to your incident with Jack Hyles).

I know...I sound like a Jack Hyles Fan Boy...

I admit to listening to him as a teenager, but never since (I'm 30 now). I just know that the INTERNET is such a wonderful place to BASH people that "may" be trying to live for God.

There is a very "small?" possibility that some of these men that get bashed on the internet may have either started their ministry or lived their ministry with a tremendous heart for God, and just because one of them shows their "human nature", we doubt their motive since day one of ministry.

I will be very clear...I don't hate anyone, but Jack Schaap always rubbed me the wrong way...however, I believe there may be 1 or 2 or 3 or maybe even 5,000 that he may have SINCERELY tried to help. Let's not just say we are "praying for them" (very much overused term), but let's give the crime that fits the punishment, yet apply the grace (not tolerance) that God has graciously applied toward us!

..."Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed...lest ye fall".

This verse applies to ALL OF US.

This is my very first and last post to one of these "gossip" (or you would say "warning") for fear of making people think I am a keyboard warrior, I will stop here. And, I won't even save this page to come back to it.

God bless you all, and I hope we get to the place where we examine our own lives and consider the graciousness we would want people to show us should we fall...

BrianHei1 on 12:38 PM said...

I attended Hyles-Anderson College in the 80's. Schaap was the heir apparent (I imagine he was around 25 then) - a young superstar on the rise and the man on campus (and at church, and at anything else he showed up at). I was amazed at how he was worshiped - but not really since they did the same with his FIL jack h. (who most if not all treated like deity - like a god). That place is twisted and a lot of their leaders and products as well. Bad place, worse people (not all, but most).

Dave Gibbs? Errrr, I personally don't like him any better. When I was a very young single dad I needed some assistance (mostly in the way of some advice) - he and associates had absolutely ZERO time for me...either I was too poor or not spiritual enough or not a church entity. He has no compassion or energies for the victim or down-trodden.

Anonymous said...

I see the 100% Hyles Spirit lives on. I am convinced, no matter how much evidence is given, that some people will not believe that Jack Hyles (and David Hyles) was a narcissistic, lying, adulterer.

I was a pastor during the Hyles scandal and I looked carefully at the evidence. In my opinion, it is overwhelming. People discount the evidence because of who was giving it, but forget the personalities and look at the actual evidence.

This story has been repeated over and over in the IFB church movement. It will continue to happen until changes are made doctrinally and structurally.

The IFB movement has been burying, covering up, and ignoring scandal for decades. Continuing to deny this only ends up hurting people. Sadly it seems it is more important to protect the testimony of the church or protect the "man of God" than it is to protect the people in the pew.

If people actually knew how often scandals like these are covered up they would be shocked. I speak from first hand knowledge. Yes, I am an atheist now but that does not negate what I know and this is why IFB pastors and church members are furious with me. I know where the bodies are buried and I dare speak about it.

Anonymous said...

Very good, informative blog. Thanks for the candor that you displayed when writing.

Anonymous said...

I'll start by admitting to more than a little schadenfreude at seeing the fall of this swindling goober. Naturally, I'm very sorry for the child he molested, but I'm not even remotely surprised.

Again, fully admitting my ill-will toward Schaap, I'd like to ask a pointed question without any intent to troll: Wouldn't a strict application of FBCH/Schaap's teaching mean this is all somehow Mrs. Schaap's fault, for somehow not keeping her man satisfied?

No doubt I'm a heartless heathen for wondering this, but strictly speaking, wouldn't that make the calls to pray for Mrs. Schaap hypocritical? I understand about mercy, forgiveness, and so on... but I'd be interested in honest answers (especially from some of the loquacious Schaap supporters here) to my question.


Anonymous said...

great post!

Anonymous said...

there also seems to be a pattern here of abuse. Do not forget about JackHylesJR., cindy's brother :(.

i am sure her world is so rocked right now. rightfully so!

I wonder if she will stick thisout?

Anonymous said...

I attended a church that had a pastor that seemed fond of Hyles and his legacy. I was stunned to find he was impressed by a mega-church. I don't see how anyone can know anyone in such a church, or how they can minister to each other in any meaningful way. While I realize this can happen even in smaller congregations, larger churches make it so much easier for something like this to happen. Guard your family, your spouse, your children...there are wolves among us. Shame on them for blaming the teen. He's the responsible adult...

Anonymous said...

@anonymous. That made me laugh out loud. I realize that this is no laughing matter, but you voiced exactly what I had been thinking. I no longer attend FBC, and I no longer live in the area. I did however grow up in the church under Hyles and saw much of the controversy first hand. I saw so much deception, twisting, corruption, and trash that I walked away as a young adult thinking, "if that's Christianity, I don't want it!" Thankfully in the intervening years, I've come to realize God is NOT a part of that system!! I also am curious to know what Schaap supporters have to say about Cindy not keeping her man.....

Joyful Blessings on 11:15 AM said...

We are Christians...the Bible is meant to be important to us...worth dying for...remember how JS treated our precious Bible three years ago? The people that cared about that and left are not caught in this thing now. The 3 000 that left were the ones that followed God not a man. Put God first..make no compromise for men and he will keep you safe.

Anonymous said...

One concern on behalf of the church, and Jack Schaap, is that it is entirely possible for people who have a problem with him, or the church to now bring up false accusations. I agree completely that any true victims need to come forward, I just hope that this doesn't become an opportunity for angry non-victims to get back at schaap, or FBC for personal dislike/distaste.

Anonymous said...

I think it will be very important for all IFB churches to acknowledge from the pulpit that what Jack Schaap has done is 100% wrong. If each one does not do this it will be condoning him and also continuing the hero worship of him. It is ok to preach out against him, that is not gossip,that is truth. CALL HIM OUT!

Anonymous said...

I wish other IFB would publicly make a written statement somewhere we could read about how they feel about this situation of Jack Schaap. I would not attend an IFB church where a pastor still condoned him. But I just bet they will never speak out against him...

Anonymous said...

Please do not blame this on all Fundamental Baptist churches. I am a IFB and happy to say so. Most of all I am a child of the King! I have never been a fan of the Hyper Hyles group and even less of the "schaap" group. Too many churches around the nation want to be like FBC and place "Dr. Hyles and Schaap" on some pedestal. Wonder what they all think now? If you follow man you will be dissappointed!!! Just keep your eyes on the Saviour. On the other hand we've all blown it in some way sometime. This church and the families still need our prayer. Don't do the typical Baptist thing and kick'em while they're down.

Anonymous said...

This is what happens when the focus is on how a person looks on the outside and not on building character. This is also why there is such a "great falling away" from the church. Too many "wolves in sheep's clothing" in the pulpit and the pews!

Anonymous said...

How did JS treat the Bible three years ago?

Anonymous said...

Well said...

Anonymous said...

I agree totally, we need to quit judging, let God do that.....what we need to do is pray for the schaaps and that church!

Anonymous said...

Jack schaap has done more good and helped more people in 10 yrs than im sure you will do in your entire life....if you did understand about forgiveness and mercy you wouldnt be bashing a sinner just like yourself!!! How well would you do with a ministry that size and all that constant pressure, im sure you'd fall too

Anonymous said...


Done good? Helped people? Ah, so that's what you kids are calling it these days...

Anonymous said...

Please let's have made up witch hunt hear! ! Brother Gibb first is a man lf God and wojld never try to cover up anything second. What Brother Schaap has done is bad enough without outside lawers trying to get people that disliked brother Schaap to file a complaint. We as Christians new to pray and fast for the young girl and ber family, for brother Schaap sister Cindy and family also let's pray for a man of God to step up and take the church of Hammond and for our brothers and sisters of this church. Please do not judge or say anything if you do not know the facts!! Remember the devil would love for a big scandal to come from this. Already they are attacking brother Hyles.Please keep our pastors of our nation in your prayer s for a hedge of protection. Brothers and Sisters of Hammond get ready for a tough run! We are all in this together!!

Anonymous said...

Wisdom Hunter (a novel published in 1991, and still on the market today) illustrates the destructiveness of dictatorial and authoritarian pastors. Many consider the book to be a “classic”. The author graduated from Tennessee Temple University, and grew up in the Independent Baptist camp. When the book was first released, it was banned at many Independent Baptist churches, even Bob Jones University. Maybe the author had something to say that was, and is, worth listening to.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 22 - you are part of the problem. If a pastor fails so spectacularly in one key part of his life, then the rest of the "good" is suspect.

Anonymous said...

The comments about David Gibbs' allegiance and/or motives reeks of an unfairness. Having much more than a brushing acquaintance with both Brother Gibbs and the FBC ministry, I know it is made up of God-fearing people who want righteousness and justice as much or more than the author of the above article does. Sin is rampant everywhere-- and no-one's heart is above it. (Jeremiah 17:9)Jack Schaap has forfeited his calling to pastor, and rightly so. But x-raying people's motives is idolatry: it assumes the role of God. Shame on you.

Hannah on 1:49 PM said...

But x-raying people's motives is idolatry: it assumes the role of God. Shame on you.

??? What does that even mean? Seriously.

Stating his responsibility as a lawyer is idolatry? Talking about someone's 'motive' as you put - does not assume any role either.

You make you no sense at all.

If a lawyer doesn't have some sort of 'allegiance' as you put it to his client? He is not good lawyer. That's just common sense.

Anonymous said...

I just want to inform you that came out of a church that had great Bible preaching and teaching that convicted my heart as a teenager in east Los angeles. The church had the same teachings as FBC hammond. I decided to come to Hyles Anderson College. One year later my church back home decided to drop all Biblical Standards and live just like a non believer. I came back and the pastor wanted to have a meeting with the students of college, but when we went to his office the wife did not let him say nothing, she did all the talking for him. I realized then that she manipulated her husband to go wherever she wanted him to go. She poison the hearts and mind of my family towards me and became very bitter. I left that church because of it and they also greatly delight in mocking the misfortunes of others and call me legalistic for reading the word of God. My guess is that they want me to be like them and refuse to be a control freak like some of the wives that want there husbands to be henpecks.

Anonymous said...

Former FBCHI Pastor Schaap Was Indeed CALLED & NOT HIRED !





I've Been Active In CHICAGO POLITICS Since The Early 1980s & Can Say That There Is MORE To This MATTER Of BR. SCHAAP That The "Church" & "The World" Really Knows &-Or Realizes !

I Have Personally Spoken By Phone With Br. Keith McKinney (FBCHI's Liason For Political Affairs) & Br. Roy Moffit On The BR. SCHAAP MATTER; And Have Told THEM, As I Am Telling The "Christian" &-Or "Non-Christian" World PUBLICLY & OPENLY:



THE F.B.I.'s INVESTIGATION Is STILL In Progress & THEIR Conclusive RESULTS Are STILL To Be Announced & Seen In The (Hopefully) Very Near Future.



Truthfully, Honestly, Sincerely & Respectfully Yours,

2011 Candidate For City Treasurer,
City Of Chicago,
State Of Illinois,
United States Of America.

Anonymous said...

Schaap is a pervert. His so called preaching was filled with hate. I doubt if the man is even saved. How anyone could stick up for him or his wicked father in law is beyond me. Those that say you were not part of the church here, you do not know, let me remind you of Hyle's daughter Linda! She lived under the same roof with her dad and knows the real Dr. Hyles! He had money and power and it destroyed him. The church in Hammond is man centered not Christ centered! God have mercy on the people sitting in the pews that have not been feed spiritually for decades.

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