I have question for everyone, and would love to hear from theories.
For some reason I started this huge fire storm with my article about John Piper and how his ignorance is killing children. I have dealt with a number of families, and their children within those families. The children it seems are the silent victims.
There are a number of churches that are truly coming around, and realizing their error when dealing with domestic violence.
I have found in part it was due to them participating with this dynamic within their church. First being relieved at what seemed to be true repentance, but once the hard work to truly allow God to change the mindset of the abuser? All Hell breaks lose, and they quickly found themselves sitting their stunned wondering where that 'true repentance' went!
What happened to the tears and 'I will never do that again?" The 'I want to CHANGE!" It was to overwhelming for the abusers. Just like real life is, and they responded in the way they always do unfortunately.
HOW do you reason with a person that is acting and thinking irrationally?
They got a good TASTE of what this family deals with, and instead of waffling over it they forged ahead. This is by no means easy waters, and its heart breaking.
Cheryl Schatz had an article that I found via Dave Warnock. I have to wonder how John Piper got from point A to point B. The subject it seemed was: do we deny women more opportunities than the Bible denies them?
I dealt with a couple one time. They were sitting in front of me, and she said, “He learned from you that I have to get permission from him for everything I do.” I said, “Really? Like what?” And she said, “To go to the bathroom! He won’t let me leave the room without his permission. If I get up and walk out of the room, he says, ‘Hey, you’re supposed to ask me first.’”I had to giggle. YEP a women that has a husband that demands she ask permission to go the bathroom (which he recognizes as sick) is thinking, "What kind of ministries might a woman do?" (Shakes head) I think I can safely say that is the LAST thing on her mind! I think most would have him address the man's sick nature, and deal with ministry later don't you?
That’s not because the man values complementarianism. That’s not complementarianism. That’s sick! So we do deny women things that we shouldn’t deny them, if we’re sick.
Now the person asking this question is probably not going there. They’re probably thinking, “In the church, what kinds of ministries might a woman do?”
Why he would think ministries at this point would be her first priority when she brings up a sick situation like that? If she seriously was using that as an example, then why didn't he mention there is other work to do here besides what she was asking? I mean would either of them be qualified for ministry at this point? I'm sure the person that ASKED the question may NOT be the person in the example, but the example he gave? That is ONE as to WHY they do ask about this! On a side note? Strange example to use for this lesson I have to say. It shows the blinders as to how he won't deal with the sick portion, but goes on about roles of women in ministry. THAT makes it even stranger!
IS SEPARATION GOOD OR BAD AT THAT POINT?
If the victim is separated at this point the church has a better chance of helping this family.
Why do I say that?
Abusers get scared when they are called out - no matter HOW nicely - and they will refuse to return to the church that they say 'claims' to want to help (physically or emotionally). They want to hide their sin in the darkness, and they will use force to keep it there.
Its like Chris Brown, and how he feels the people that are upset at what he has done are just 'haters'. They don't take his 'change' at face value, and he just LUMPS everyone together as those that don't like him anyway. He doesn't need to explain himself. You take what he says at face value, or you are the enemy or 'hater'.
Abusive people do actually believe this - its a coping mechanism for them.
If the couple is together, and he gets uncomfortable with something when help arrives?
You have a better chance of seeing that family LEAVE the church. He will do things to isolate the family from that help. In his broken state you are a threat to his authority!
I think we all realize that type of authority may not be what John Piper's church is thinking, but this is what he is hearing sadly. Its like the 'sick' man he speaks of. The example he gave the man he speaks of clearly didn't grasp it did he? Yet he goes on to speak of roles in ministry?!?!
The sick man will rebel if someone is actually STRONG enough to go into details regarding the sick mindset. The abusive person's anxiety level will go up, and feel attacked...and if they are NOT separated?
The family will either stop going to that church all together, or find another place to worship that doesn't 'hate on him'. You see how he tries to avoid his accountability? Its to much for him to bear!
Most of the time when he does stay? Its because the church supports his side of the story hook, line and sinker. In the example above? He will stay because the pastor thinks she is more questioning her role in ministry.
He will do this separation (or a better word is isolate them) from others in all kinds of situations he sees as a threat. It could be friends that see the dangerous dynamic, family who see it, neighbors, etc. If they feel victims are getting support at their job, organization they volunteer at. They will slowly isolate them from the support. THAT includes threats that the children may bring into the dynamic as well.
Remember evil likes to hide in the darkness!
The abuser may not be totally evil, but he does have a root of evil within him. What the bible say about that root? They prefer that to stay in the darkness. GOSH wonder why that would be huh?
ENDURE OR FLEE THE EVIL
One aspect for her enduring is truthfully what? Fear. That is the reason BEFORE you knew about the behavior or asked about it. The chances of this being a first time isn't very likely.
One aspect of WHY you want her to flee besides safety? Chances are VERY good the next day he will find ways of talking her OUT of calling the church! He will weep and be mournful, or plain use intimidation to make her silent. Remember the motive of evil - keep it in the darkness.
Another aspect that people can't grasp for some reason for their reason for enduring before they tell the church - they want an intact family. YES she does want the same thing YOU DO, but are you going to help that FEAR she feels regarding him go away?
The 'wanting of a intact family' kind of slaps the theories of how they are listening to ugly supporters that just want to break up families huh?
It doesn't fit the 'making excuses so they can leave' crowd either.
Fear at times keeps them there, and fear is normally the reason they want to flee.
The blinders on the biblical roles is a sense of confusion when you get mixed messages on what to do with that fear.
She is only getting HURT, and it is not sin if she endures his wrath for a season.
Its much more than HURT. Take the blinders off and see the real reality. I would assume with most people if you are being verbally and physically attacked by a stranger you would be more than HURT wouldn't you? Now look at the situation again - this is the person that is your spouse! Its MUCH more than HURT!
You hear churches speak on how are to speak out against sin, but then you are told to endure it first.
The ROLES within the marriage is why! That is confusing because of the contradiction!
You are told you don't understand the word of GOD, and those ROLES that were God ordained, etc.
That's not answer - its a diversion!
Why do they get so many questions about submission? They tend to contradict themselves to much.
The blinders on roles seem to help them THINK it should make sense to them and the rest of the world.
They have the parrot talk for those that don't agree. YOU don't know the WORD OF GOD! No. You don't have ears to hear! You completely MISSED your opportunity to address SICK behavior, and used blinders to talk about women in ministry!
WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?
The children in most cases love both of their parents. That doesn't change when separation happens, but there is alot of confusion for them. I'm sure people will point out all kinds of reports about that. How about we look further inside the world of the children.
They don't have to be told what the abuser is capable of. In more cases than not if they feel safe enough - they will tell you.
When they don't feel safe? They will leave you small hints here and there.
Alot of times they are scared to say to much because they know they will feel the wrath of the abuser when they find out. Loyalty to them is safer than speaking out. Look at history it happens with adults as well! Its safer to go along with the 'authority' in their life, and say they are on their side than to step out and risk the wrath. They have fear as well.
Slamming the victim at times they know will give them a reward when visitation times comes. Speaking OUT against the abuser will hand them wrath. You can't stop visitation legally, or refuse it in most cases. Supervised visitation is not easy to get either if that was the next suggestion. Those may not do much for the fear anyway.
There are times where there is out right denial, and they are no different than alot of others. We see that in Chris Brown's mother, and you might see that in others that deny alcohol or drug issues with a family member.
Those in denial get MAD when you poke holes in their world. Why is that? FEAR!
The children want to love both parents, and they care for both parents. That would be quite normal!
What do you do when one hurts you for their own personal reasons, and it has nothing to do with discipline for example. They see this person raging in their home over a cup left out, or they witness belittling, mocking, name calling, and just plain contempt? They might see items thrown, walls punched, doors kicked in, or screams of pain from their other parent in a different room. They might see the man REMIND her she is to ask permission EVEN to go to the bathroom!
They have a different kind of fear. Its on a childlike level, and we are missing helping when we only see ROLES for their parents!
People don't stop to think of the children's worlds when they use 'roles' as excuse to NOT see bad advice out of ignorance.
You are telling those children that the abuser's world is the safer one, and WHY would you wish to give them that impression?
Think about that for a moment. Remember as John Piper stated - its SICK!
THE BIBLICAL ROLES OF MEN AND WOMEN
You know WHY I wrote the John Piper article, and placed my focus upon the children's viewpoint? I see the blinders on when it comes to roles. If we can GET the focus off the biblical roles for a moment, maybe someone can see the cruel world that the children are forced to deal with.
You know what happened with the comments? It was diverted back to roles of the men and women. We were told we don't UNDERSTAND God's word, and we need to stop right there to think about that.
How John Piper is a nice man, and he studies the word of God. How is a good preacher and friend.
That has nothing to with anything.
I'm sure he is nice, and all the rest. Does that mean he can't have a blind spot? He can't possibility have that debit at all? That's nonsense! Drop the blinders and hear what people are saying - you have a blind spot if all you can think of is biblical ROLES in marriage!
You can have your ROLES, and see the truth at the same time. It doesn't change ANYTHING! Its not a THREAT to any ROLE!
Why is it being taken like it is?
What they can't seem to grasp is their contradictions in the teachings.
John Piper has written, and you can see videos on how women are to submit to their husbands...they submit unless they are asked to sin.
I think most people would agree about NOT submitting to sin part as the exception.
The reason he is asked questions all the time about submission is his contradictions to that statement.
Now that's one kind of situation. Just a word on the other kind. If it's not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.
If people are told of a story of someone raging at them, and hitting them most would have no problem with telling that person to find a way to safety.
When you have a wife in the picture? Its just hurting her - God's daughter - and she is not required to sin if she endures this.
Why is it sin (or not recommended or given as counsel) to find a way to safety in her case? Why is avoiding the hurt by the sinning party making her sin?
That has nothing to do with roles, and has everything to do with 'that makes no sense AT ALL!'
If a stranger was doing this to her in the presence of her children? Does she not find a way to safety, and ask for help - or is that sin as well and she should endure that and seek help from the church?
Is it only her ROLE to endure that from her husband? Why?
Take the blinders off and SEE how that doesn't make any sense!
In Matthew 25:14-30 the servant buried the masters money - did nothing with it - and returned it to him upon his return.
Notice, the servant did not do any outright evil, such as stealing the money, but then neither did he do anything good. He did nothing and he got nothing good accomplished. His Lord condemned him as a "wicked and slothful servant".
If John Piper is not concerned about HER finding a way to safety, and would feel it is a sin if she does not endure this?
What about the children? What GOOD is she doing allowing them to live with that dynamic? Is that a true aspect of the protection of children that God calls for?
Get off your biblical roles for a moment and THINK about that aspect!
Ephesians 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness. Hmmm. It doesn't say endure it does it? How would you have 'nothing' to do with it? Does standing there and enduring it look like 'having nothing to do with it'? Does enduring it RATHER EXPOSE THEM fit the scripture? No.
One who is silent when there are those around him in sin becomes a partaker with them (Eph. 5:7).
Jesus warned "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad" (Mt. 12:30).
In the fight against evil there is no middle ground, no gray area, no neutrality . Those who are not actively and vigorously working and fighting against evil are helping evil to triumph.
When good men do nothing, they are no longer good.
Many have the mistaken notion that good is merely the absence of doing that which is wrong. Not so!
One is good not merely because he does no evil, but because he is actively working for what is good. "Let him eschew evil, and do good" (1 Pet. 3:11). James explained, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas. 4:17).
Do not allow evil to triumph. Do not do nothing. Stand up and be counted, speak up against evil and speak out against evil men and their sinful deeds.
You do not do that by enduring the sin, and calling the church AFTER it is over because John Piper told you that is how it is to be done. It goes against God's word!
I honestly don't think John Piper, and his followers that posted about 'roles' in the face of children in danger - STOPPED long enough to study themselves! Don't tell others they didn't study the word of God well enough, and maybe we should HUSH!
You see if you take the blinders off, and look at the bible it does speak about resisting evil - not enduring it for a season. You can get to safety - you TAKE that opportunity! You enlist HELP!
Take advantage of the victims fleeing due to fear! Support them! Protect THEM! Don't tell them to ENDURE for that evening or a season!
Take the blinders off - it has nothing to do with ROLES! It has to do with GOD'S WORD! Take off the rose colored glasses, and DEAL WITH THIS! When someone mentions her husband commands that she ask permission to leave the room to go to the bathroom? How about we go further than mentioning its sick! We don't need to deal with roles of woman in ministry at that point! We need to address the SICK behavior!
WHY is that so hard to understand?
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