John Piper: Women teaching Men

I think John Piper has now ‘confused’ the biblical manhood crowd.  I’m serious.

 

No doubt we have all heard the speeches about Biblical Manhood and Biblical Womanhood.  The lists of do’s and don’ts are constantly being added.  Some of them are indeed quite odd.  This one can be added to the oddities list.

 

Before I start I have to wonder if John Piper actually plans what he wants to say, or the message he wants to get across to people.  I honestly don’t think he does on this type of platform.    I think of all the strange things that have come out of his mouth, and I KNOW he can’t actually STUDY before he says this stuff.  To me it would be WORSE if he did!

 

The question that was presented to him, “Would a pastor who uses a biblical commentary written by a woman be placing himself under the biblical instruction of a woman.  If so, would this not go against Paul’s instruction in I Timothy 2:12?”  (I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.)

It might be.  Uh.  He may feel it that way.  And if he does, he probably’s not gonna read it.  He shouldn’t read it.  It doesn’t have.  It doesn’t have to be experienced that way I don’t think.

In other words, he doesn’t know.…I think.

Don’t worry, it gets better.  Or should I say – MORE confusing!

So, I think the point of that text is not to say that you can never learn anything from a woman.  That’s just not true.  It’s not true biblically, and it’s not true experientially, because the reason for saying that I don’t permit a woman to teach or have authority over men here is not because she’s incompetent.  It’s not because she can’t have thoughts.  In fact, the women in your church, and the woman in, the woman you are married to, have many thoughts that you would do well to know. [laughs] And to know, and learn, and to learn from.  And so the issue there is not that she doesn’t have thoughts that you wouldn’t benefit from.  Or that she can’t, uh, teach you anything.

The, the issue is one of how does manhood and womanhood work.  What is the dynamic between how men flourish and women flourish as God designed them to flourish when an act of authority is being exerted on a man from a woman.

And so I distinguish between personal, direct exercises of authority that involve manhood and womanhood.

Okay then.   This says pretty much a whole lot of nothing right?  You can tell he has heard or read some comments from women towards his past teachings of this verse.  He wants to be sure you realize he doesn’t think women are dumb.  Why THANK YOU….I think.

Now we will glance at ‘direct’ and ‘indirect’ examples of women in ‘authority’.  The point is more about the ‘teaching’, but of course as we know ‘authority’ to him is the UPMOST of importance.

Because it’s personal.  She’s right there.  She’s woman.  I’m man.  And I’m being directly, uh, pressed on by this woman in an authoritative way.  Should she be doing that?  Should I be experiencing that?  And my answer’s, No;  I think that’s contrary to the way God made us.

So those two words:  Personal and direct.

Here, here would be an example of what I mean.  A drill sergeant that gets in the face and says, Hut One, Hut Two, Keep Your Mouth Shut Private, Get Your Rifle Up Here, Turn Around Like I Said.  I don’t think a woman ought to be doin’ that to a man – because it’s direct, it’s forceful, it’s authoritative, it’s compromising something about the way a man and a woman were designed by God to relate.

Now, lets put our common sense hat on for a moment!  Tell me what anyone learns from, ‘Hut One, Hut Two, Keep Your Mouth Shut Private, Get Your Rifle Up Here, Turn Around Like I Said.’  That’s not teaching – I guess we can say authoritative drills?

Yes, there is a purpose to drills within the Army.  I realize he wouldn’t be comfortable experiencing this and being pressed on like this FROM a WOMAN, and you have a way of avoiding that.  Don’t join the Army!  I mean she is ‘submitting’ to her authorities by doing her this.  She is following the chain of command.

I guess it never dawned on him that WOMEN don’t ‘flourish’ under those circumstances either – by design!  I’m not sure what he is trying to say here.  It’s rather confusing.  I’m not sure I know anyone that likes to be bossed around like that.  To be honest?  This is an example of ‘authority over’ if you get right down to it.  In the biblical or personal context  – that’s SIN!  (Yes, I took the military context out of it)

Uh. The opposite would be where she is a city planner.  She’s sitting in an office at a desk drawing which street should be one way and which street should be two way.  And thus she’s gonna control which way men drive all day long.  That’s a lot of authority, and it’s totally impersonal, and indirect, and therefore has no dimension of maleness or femaleness about it, and therefore I don’t think contradicts anything that Paul is concerned about here.

So I would put a woman writing a book way more in that category of city planner than of a drill sergeant.   So that the, the personal directness of it is removed.  And the man doesn’t feel himself, and she wouldn’t feel herself, in any way compromised by his reading that book and learning from that book.

(LAUGHS!) Yes, she can’t directly give you cooties I guess!  Sorry I couldn’t help myself. 

I think I understand WHAT he is attempting to say.  One example of a woman – of course in the extreme – that gets in the man’s face and bosses him around.  Again this would be an example of authority ‘over’ him.  How does ‘bossing someone around’ have any dimension of maleness or femaleness?  It doesn’t.

Then you have the woman as the city planner.  In reality she is following a traffic pattern, and laying out how it works with local traffic laws.  To me that isn’t authority at all.  It also isn’t ‘teaching’.  We now have two bad examples of the point he is trying to make.

Using these two examples – that I suppose your could use for his purposes – women are to be impersonal and indirect so they have no dimension on maleness and femaleness when ‘teaching’ to men.

Quite honestly that doesn’t remove the ‘authority’ he speaks of.  I mean I assume if she taught something he hadn’t gleamed prior – it was authoritative.  To Piper the ‘authority’ portion is the important part.  That is the ‘maleness’ part that women shouldn’t have.  Confused yet?

So that, that’s the way I’ve tried to think it through, so that, in society, and in in academic efforts, and in the church.

So that, that’s reading and benefitting from a woman’s exegesis in private.
Would you have any reservations about quoting from that commentary by a women in a public sermon?

I just think that’s an extension of the same principle.

You know there, here’s truth.  A woman saw it.  She shared it in a book.  And I now, I now quote it.

Uh.  Because I’m not having a direct, authoritative confrontation.  She’s not lookin’ at me, and, and confronting me, and authoritatively directing me, as woman.  There’s this, there’s this interposition* of this phenomenon called “book” and “writing” that puts her out of my sight, and, in a sense, takes away the dimension of her female personhood.

Whereas if she were standing right in front of me, and teaching me, as my shepherd, week in and week out, I couldn’t make that separation.  She’s woman. And I am man.  And she’s becoming to me my shepherd week in and week out, which is why I think the Bible says that women shouldn’t be that role in the church.

*Interposition - To place (oneself) between others or things

 

So he can learn from a women within the privacy of his own home while reading, but face to face is just too much for him….biblically.  You know the whole God’s design deal.  It reminds him of the woman drill sergeant I guess.  The book without her personal presence to teach allows him takes away her female ‘personhood’….in dimension (shakes head).  (Does he pretend she is MALE that way as well?  It won’t hurt him that way right?)

Man can have ‘indirect’ authoritative confrontation or directing, because she is only (ahem) preaching in a book.  It will allow his manhood to flourish and not be threatened by the mere fact he is reading a female author.  If she is in front of him?  WELL that might mean she could teach him again, and again and again.   That COULD make a shepherd.  Does this make anyone else dizzy?

I’m sorry but this man has some gall.  To THINK his manhood is protected by a book, because HE can take away that ‘dimension’ of being female away?  HE must separate those aspects, because otherwise its not GOD’S Design?  It’s insulting, and quite frankly I have to wonder if he hasn’t completely lost his cotton pickin MIND!  

How does that work when he is to speak at the True Women’s Conference?  Can you imagine…he is waiting for his time to get up on stage with his ears plugged saying ‘la la la la’ due to the fact a woman is on stage ‘teaching’….it’s a wonder he wasn’t diminished!

 

Okay – on a serious note:

He does realize that God’s word is NOT to be ‘indirect’ in this fashion right?  I’m pretty sure God’s word is to be ‘direct’.  Hmmm.  Maybe he can apply or not apply that interposition deal.  I guess he figures he is safe – remember that God has a ‘masculine feel’ afterall.  To me the more he talks about this biblical roles, or gender roles the more emasculated he sounds.    I never understand WHY he doesn’t realize how insecure and fearful he comes across.  Seriously.  He sounds like he is scared to death of woman.

 

What you think?  Confused yet?! Or just downright outraged?

 

MANHOOD, WOMANHOOD AND THE FREEDOM TO MINISTER
(1 Timothy 2:8-15)

John Piper’s thoughts back in 1989.

 

Additional articles on his podcast:

John Piper: “women’s books keep men safe from their direct, authoritative womanhood”

The Absurd Legalism of Gender Roles: Exhibit C – “As long as I can’t see her…”

CBMW, John Piper, Women Drill Sergeants, and Biblical Roles

Women Can Write Sermons; They Just Can’t Preach Them: Karl Barth vs John Piper

what John Piper sees when women teach

Drawing Source Used

Men are Visual. Women are Vessels

I don’t know about most, but I can’t stand messages that come across about how men are so weak minded, and sex craved.  To me one of the lessons we hear preached from time to time tends to encourage this aspect, and they basically are enabling lust to happen. 

Lust to me is the same thing as coveting.  There is a huge difference between admiring a pretty person, and allowing your mind to imagine how they would be in bed.  Today it seems they tend to blur those things, and fantasy turns into the norm.  That isn’t what the bible says at all. 

We also tend to over exaggerate this aspect in life, because the ones don’t wish to speak about choices in life – tend to tell you its ‘everywhere’ and they can’t escape it.  There is no possible reason you are look at them as possibly weak minded in this aspect, because its always the other parties fault.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

There is a huge difference between admiring someone, or the ‘OH BOY to much FLESH for me’ moments.  Then you have those that use that ‘to much flesh for me’ parts of life, and twist them into a lust fest.  The author I speak about uses that moment, and encourages wife’s to allow their husband’s to use them as a vehicle to get all those thoughts out of their mind.  What he doesn’t seem to realize is that doesn’t eliminate the lust, but just lets them have a bit of fun with it.  Here is what I’m talk about:

Understand his appetites, and free his body. Your husband’s two primary physical appetites are for food and sex. He will appreciate it whenever you make the effort to prepare delicious and nutritious food for him. Understand the pressure he feels sexually as a man: Men are wired to respond to visual stimulation, and must deal with seeing sexual imagery often in our society today. Your husband can’t escape it, so he must try to resist the temptation of it while fighting to remain faithful to you as God calls him to be. Your husband needs sexual release often in order to be emotionally healthy. Don’t withhold sex from him when there’s conflict between you. Instead, work on communicating with each other through sex, which will calm your husband, bond him closer to you, and motivate him to work on your marriage more. Let him know what you need him to do to help you enjoy sex with him more, and help him learn how to improve your sex life together. Do whatever you can to make yourself physically attractive, such as by taking good care of your body through exercise and eating well and dressing attractively both in public and at home. If your husband refuses to have sex with you, seek counseling to figure out how to solve the problem.  - How to Learn What Your Husband Isn’t Telling You

(My first comment is the husband doesn’t need water as well? (laughs) look at the second sentence about the primary physical appetites!  Okay – moving on….)

What is lust?

The dictionary definition of lust is "1) intense or unrestrained sexual craving, or 2) an overwhelming desire or craving."
or
Lust is having a self-absorbed desire for an object, person, or experience.

The bible speaks against this, and not once in the bible does it speak of using another person to satisfy it.   It also never says that someone else is responsible for you coveting something that isn’t yours.

Church Leaders that Hide the Truth are Cowards! Can we admit that?

We all know that churches – or shall we say more directly HUMANS make mistakes.  It happens, because we all have screwed up royally at times.  Church leadership isn’t immune.  For me its how they handle their mistakes that show their fruit.    Then you have times in which tragedy hits, and if they make mistakes hiding the tragedy instead of facing it?  It’s hard to wrap you head around WHY they refuse to face the truth.  The more they bounce around?  The more trust they break along the way.

 

We have a saying that goes, ‘The larger they are the harder they fall’. 

 

Today when we look at large congregations in trouble?  It also depends on how they handle that fall, because if they handle it badly?  They don’t just fall hard…they tend to bounce. 

 

The more they bounce along they are also asking others to endure one hard fall after another.

 

I think we have all experienced that in life.  We blew it in some way, and when the time came to face our error….we hid it instead.  We may have been scared of the consequences, or just wanted to get away with it.  We may have told just part of the story, and were hesitate to share the entire circumstance.

 

Then before we know it we get nailed with a full out wrath that tends to be worse than if we had just LAID out our sin the way we were suppose to in the beginning.  Most individuals tend to give all up at that point, because its clear to them the truth is out.  There is no denying it.  Its scary, and its hard but its time to let it all go.

 

It seems lately we have very LARGE organizations within the faith bouncing all over the place by choice.  Now realize I’m not saying ‘literally’ by choice, and I guess the better way to phase that is bouncing due to ‘choices’.  Okay, YES I guess I was right the first time….they bounce by choice.

 

They have some ugly, awful thing happen within their congregation.  They wait until they HAVE to say something, and then they choose to say as little as possible.  They fall hard, and then BOUNCE up with business as usual. 

 

Then another piece comes out, and they fall hard once again and BOUNCE up once again.  The circumstances tends to settle in, and more comes to light.  BOUNCE! BOUNCE! BOUNCE! 

 

Keep in mind its not different types of sin that surfaced, but the same one that they attempted to silence to begin with.  What’s even harder to understand is the people that back up their decision to go down this silly path to begin with.

 

You normally hear all these excuses about how they had to weight what was appropriate to share, and when they needed share it.  You would think the first or second time they BOUNCED they would have realized its time to lay it all out there. 

 

They have a hard time admitting that they break that bond of trust they have within their congregation each and every time they decide to bounce instead of just falling…and then slowly getting up to learn from their mistake.

 

It’s rather scary for me to realize that these leaders are really true cowards at heart.  They are quick to preach what the bible says, and refuse to learn a darn thing themselves.  Yes, that is part of the reason they are called Pharisees.

 

When you read the bible during those times in which Jesus got truly upset with the sin of others?   It was normally directed towards the religious leaders at the time.   

 

They got so consumed with their power, prestige, and role within the community.  They had all the answers, and they expected people to fall into line when it came to what they had to say.  All that power in a sense went to their heads, and not their hearts. 

 

They lost the essence of their position, because they wanted to LEAD not GUIDE.  They got more out of sin sniffing, because they knew they were almost immune from it themselves.  If people questioned that part?  They had their own personal thugs (they call supporters) waiting for their time to tear you apart for not doing as you were told.

 

I have known many truly decent pastors in my lifetime.  They also had some hard circumstances come their way, and they were the first to admit how agonizing it was.  Hiding these things just wasn’t within their character.  They looked to themselves, their church policies, and everything else under the sun to see HOW this failure could have happened.  They wanted to be sure it could never happen again.  They wanted everyone else to watch for it as well!

 

They were the ones that were quick to take the blame, and really own it.  They knew their position, and they felt the responsibility.  They mourned with those that mourned, and along with that asked for forgiveness.  I think most of us realize unless they did the sin themselves it wasn’t ultimately their responsibility, but none the less they owned it.  They will be the first to admit they dropped the ball somewhere, and they will point it out…and take their lumps that comes along with it.  Notice they aren’t the ones that need the thugs – errrr ‘supporters’ either!  At least not in the same way the bouncing ball pastors do!

 

I would say that most people respond to that type of leadership, because we have all lived similar circumstances yet in different ways.  We can empathize with it if nothing else.  That is the firm foundation of being able to grow past it.  The foundation was firm because there was no bombshell waiting to be the next earthquake to smash it to pieces.

 

We always struggle with HOW on earth these men in leadership can allow themselves to keep bouncing like a ball, instead of just facing things that God would have them face.  I look at the attitude that we clearly see today that was spoken of in scripture so long ago: ⁴² Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; ⁴³ for they loved human praise more than praise from God.

Here is the entire passage:

 

John 12:37-43

³⁷ Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. ³⁸ This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”^[a]

³⁹ For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

⁴⁰ “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”^[b]

⁴¹ Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

⁴² Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; ⁴³ for they loved human praise more than praise from God.

 

Tragedy will always hit churches at one time or another.  Its how we handle this that shows our true faith in God.  The truth will help the survival of the church, and hiding things just tears at the organization’s foundation.   No doubt everywhere you go you will find the ‘yes men’, and they will hide things even knowing the truth.  A leader with integrity will not allow the errors the church made be hidden, because they know God will find a way to heal them.

 

Yes, that is the harder road to travel.  Isn’t that what we hear preached all the time anyway?

 

When they hide things, and allow their churches to bounce, bounce and bounce again?  To me it shows they just don’t get it, and honestly shouldn’t be in the position within the church.  It’s bad enough having the deal with the sin all by itself, but breaking the bond of trust towards the position by hiding things?  It makes things worse.  The eyes are blind, their hearts are hardened. 

 

Then you have those that know better, and would rather play the supporters for these cowards then speak for truth themselves.  Both the leadership and their thugs will be the first to attack anyone that questions their way of doing business.  They also encourage others to do the same. 

 

What the church doesn’t see is with each bounce they ask members to endure they lose trust, and members leave silently.  Secrets kill churches, and individuals faith.

 

It’s not an easy place to stand up against that type of force, but it is God’s way.  At times you lose your place of worship, friends, family, and even your own position. 

 

Truth isn’t always a very easy place to stand with.  Gods asks us to anyway.  He has a plan, and we must have faith enough to wait on him.  He has a plan even when we may not see one.  Truth is what sets us free, and a church that plays a bouncing ball just isn’t.

 

C. J. Mahaney Leaves Leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries

Prestonwood Baptist Doesn't Call the Cops on the Molester, But They Call the Cops on the Church Member Who Asks Questions About the Molester

PSA: Penitent Pedophiles and CrossWay Community Church (SGM)-Graphic

Breaking: Major Win For Alex Grenier/Tim Taylor vs Calvary Chapel’s Bob Grenier

The Importance of Reporting Abuse in a Religious Setting (especially if you attended Bob Jones U)

When men have to be Lords and women subservient, THIS can happen

Biblical Roles could cause Division

What can I do, if anything,about this?
I have my role, I don't want his too!!!!
If I keep submitting to my husband,is there a chance that he might come to see what his role is??
Please pray for us!!!!

I read the above about the ‘biblical roles’ all the time.  Instead of certain churches teaching to appreciate the individual’s gifts?  You see the division starting because these gifts don’t mold into their version of ‘God Given’ biblical roles.

Don’t get me wrong I see it the other way around as well.  The men stating that the women aren’t doing what they were taught women should be doing as well.

I have to wonder if people don’t seem to understand that its causing division more than the unity that the Lord had in mind for all of us.  You read all the time about the wife or husband complaining about how they aren’t doing their role, and how they are forced to do both.  WHEN will they step up??

In turns into people feeling resentment towards their spouse, and they start to ignore the true gifts their spouse brings to the table for their relationship.  I don’t believe that is what God wanted.  You see he made that person, and they are wonderfully made!  Although according to doctrine in certain circles of faith it makes you question things that may not even be there.

If their gifts aren’t in the uniform style of what the preacher is teaching you?  It causes all kinds of issues within the relationship.  The woman I quoted above sadly doesn’t recognize the awesome aspects of her relationship, because her husband doesn’t ‘lead’ the way she was taught.  She doesn’t even see the ways he does lead, because she has a checklist that she was given.  You see the check list doesn’t line up how she is taught he SHOULD be.  Teachings should show her to appreciate what he is instead, or he may not be.  What could be an awesome relationship is being torn apart.  Why would this be good?

Let me give you an example of what I feel is God given gifts:

My daughter loves drawing.  She is darn good at it too.  One area she loves to draw is Anime.  I personally don’t understand the draw for the Japanese programs for Anime, and they really do nothing for me.  The art style in the drawing of the characters can be very complex.  I will admit it is very beautiful.  So I may not enjoy the programs with Anime characters, but I can appreciate the style of the art.

It’s quite amazing to watch her with her pencil and paper as she breezes along, and creates normally her friends in the Anime style.  Its funny to watch each of them step up, and tell her they want to be NEXT!  She gives these drawings away as gifts, and they are truly treasured.  She makes them feel great about themselves, and are proud of this drawing.  Not in a conceit type of way, but a normal healthy self image way.

Her drawing started as a young child, and her style of course was different.  It was awesome to see her get better as the years went on.  She was always good, but as she cultivated her gift her craft grew more complex.

She will always have this gift, and even if you took away the pencil and paper the gift would still be there.  The way she sees the world, and how she would create it in her own style will always be present.  It just IS... with her.

This is a gift that God blessed her with, and its something that no one can take from her.  Everyone has their own gifts that the Lord has blessed them with, and they don’t always align with the boxes I read about, or hear preached about.

When people have God given gifts?  To me it just is, and you can’t take it from someone.  It will always be present.  Telling her she must not use it, or must rid her self of it is just not possible for us humans – we all have our own gifts. God blessed us with them, and they will always be there.

I truly believe these ‘biblical roles’ according to gender at times does cause division due to my view of personal gifts.  You either have the gift or you don’t.  If you have the gift of course it can be cultivated, and improved.  It will always be there, and nothing can take it from you.  Its the way God made you.  Sadly, we don’t always learn to appreciate them, because of biblical roles we are taught we are use those instead.

The way you use that gift shows how you can honor or dishonor your relationship with Christ.  My Daughter for example, could ‘teach’ drawing to others if she wanted too.  She doesn’t usurp anyone by showing them certain skills she learned along the way.  People in general could learn from her, and its true even if they never learn to draw with excellence like she does.  She could also do things with her gift that would dishonor her relationship with the Lord by using this gift to demonize things.

When people claim that others should NOT use gifts because it dishonors the other gender?  They never stop to think about the fact these gifts are used to honor God, and he gave them to this person for his purpose.  The ‘dishonor’ crowd may not get anything from the gift, because their nose is too out joint to handle it.  Those with an open mind can appreciate it, because they realize the Lord gave it to them to use for HIM!

People will never always fit into the checklists of the gender roles, because God may never have intended us to live that way.  He may have created them totally opposite in fact.  He has a purpose for this, and it amazes me that people would question him in this manner.

Our world has enough issues as it is without us dreaming up issues that we seem to want to see there due to some silly checklist.  We won’t always see what God has intended us too, and we may miss out on wonderful things.

If we see a women  that is good at business?  We may think feminist, and how she elevates this skill above family.  When we see a man that children LOVE to play with?  We may think emasculated, and a product of this feminized world.  She shows a strength that only men are to have, and he shows nurturing that should be a trait for women. 

In the end you learn to resent these people instead of appreciating the gifts that the Lord has given them.  We dishonor God when we refuse to fellowship with them, because they don’t fit into some box our teaching has in mind.   We see a grab for power, leadership, etc. with her, and a man that folded in his masculinity for him. 

Most are able to discern if those characteristics are indeed present (power grab, emasculating), but we don’t use those discernment skills anymore.  We use our checklist instead.

This is why I see biblical roles to the point of legalism causing disunity within marriages and the church.  This should not be.