Monday, September 20, 2010

What helps us follow the leader?

Posted by Hannah at 7:00 AM

I was reading today about the Milgram experiment

The experiment basically showing people’s obedience to authority figures even when they realize something is wrong.  They were asked to do things that went against their personal conscience, and they wanted to measure the individual’s willingness to obey the authority figure.  They were asked to do things for the ‘overall good’ even at the expense of others.

This experiment has been done more than once, and the results did surprise me.  On average 65% of participates did finish the experiment even with knowing they were harming another person.  If you read anything about these types of experiments the ‘harmed’ person was an actor.   The people doing the ‘harm’ didn’t know this until they experiment was complete.

I think most of us would predict that society, as a whole wouldn’t go as far as these people did.  I think most of us if we were not familiar with these experiments would think if you can’t stop yourself YOU must be some type of monster!  I will admit before I knew about this experiment, and as I watched the videos online?  I thought the same thing as most of us would – no way would I do that!  If you look at the percentage what does show about human behavior?  I think it reveals things about us as humans that we may not have realized.

Here is a video series on the Milgram Experiments.

It reminds me of peer pressure in a way.  It shows there are situational forces that have a much greater impact on our behavior than most people recognize.  It also shows me that people will do evil things if the personal responsibility is taken away.  I will say not everyone took pleasure in the act, but continued doing it anyway, I found that to be oddly comforting, and sad at the same time.

I realize some would say there are good people, and there are BAD people!  Those individuals that went all the way, and finished the experiment all the way to the end?  THEY ARE bad!  I want to agree with that statement really badly myself!

I remember doing stupid things in my life where I didn’t open my mouth when I KNEW I should have!  I questioned if I was missing something, and everyone else saw it but me.  Come to find out I was right, and if I had been brave enough?  It would have saved a lot of grief.  I guess that makes me that bad person doesn’t it?  Sigh!

I believe I remember reading the original experiment was trying to learn WHY people in Germany would go along with all the awful, evil things that were happening there during World War II.  How most of them would say, “I was just following orders!”  It seems to be a bit more than that.

People today still believe that every German who fought for the Nazis was a demon incarnate, and that no decent person would have done what our troops ultimately did at Abu Ghraib. Meanwhile, systemic abuses of power continue because people refuse to see the value of basic safeguards. This was one lesson about human nature that went largely unlearned.

Pretending that humanity is comprised of angels and demons is just another form of denial that does nothing to protect us from the next holocaust.

In 1965, Milgram wrote, "With numbing regularity good people were seen to knuckle under the demands of authority and perform actions that were callous and severe. Men who are in everyday life responsible and decent were seduced by the trappings of authority, by the control of their perceptions, and by the uncritical acceptance of the experimenter's definition of the situation, into performing harsh acts."

In 1974, Milgram more generously noted, "It is not so much the kind of person a man is as the kind of situation in which he finds himself that determines how he will act."

If you look at the church, and see how people willingly allow themselves to be railroaded by doctrine?  How they feel certain leaders have more biblical knowledge, and instead of questioning things just feel it must be written in stone?

We not go around zapping people with electric shocks when they get the wrong answer, but we are capable of doing other things aren’t we?  Under Much Grace as a lecture that she did at the Seneca Falls 2 Evangelical Women's Rights Convention, and she also included a  second lecture on this very theme.  YES that is what got me thinking!  I think Cindy’s presentation helps us think along these lines, and how people seem to willingly just ‘accept’ some things the church says … and we truly shouldn’t.

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JaneDoeThreads on 1:40 PM said...

Hannah, the problem/issue I have with the heavy reliance On this social 'controlled' and 'environmentally' controlled [which Leads to it's own manipulation of behavior via mind controls, fact] and Why social psychologists, marketers and social engineers have pushed literally the findings of this controlled experiment ONLY on those who did 'obey' to the masses,

while leaving out and Never discussing those few [and there was a minority] that DID NOT OBEY THE INSTRUCTIONS...

and That is important, in several classes when I asked about this, the answer was Always, 'we don't focus on that aspect',

well WHY THE HELL NOT? Because the experiment in of itself [a psyops to control Future generations] was a 'tool' to indoctrinate people into THINKING




but they DID exist, in higher numbers than we Think. See THAT is how social psychology/engineers Work, they control the environments OF these experiments [and they had done similar before] AFTER YEARS OF INDOCTRINATION THROUGH EDUCATION--PUBLIC ED WHICH TEACHES 'MOB MENTALITY-CONFORMITY' AS A 'TESTING' TO SEE IF THEIR MIND CONTROLS WORK

then they TAKE those findings, and sure enough the controls work, and they ONLY FOCUS ON THE HIGH NUMBERS OF THOSE WHO OBEY

and then PEOPLE, THE MASSES 'BELIEVE IT' and therefore

they are already Internally like Pavlov obeying that They too, would also obey and sure enough, they Will,

because they've NOT read or heard of those FEW who did NOT obey and WHY they didn't, because they were Internally locus controlled, rather than External...

and This this is the 'key' to seeing Beyond the Pavlov and Milgram psyops...remember, 60s, was Also the time the gov/Illuminati were doing Mengele experiments, on Children, here in US, called Monarch programming--and BTW, these controls, which are tied into occult, go far back, to the days of Egypt, don't let the psychiatry fool you. They know Damn well, what they are doing...they've had Centuries of Practice.


Hannah on 2:52 PM said...

For myself? I think those that went against the experiment had more security in WHO they were, and were okay coloring outside the lines.

At this point in my life I'm so much MORE comfortable with that than I used to be. I was always scared, and I knew I didn't believe the junk placed out there. You get smooshed for that as I'm sure you know, and in some circumstances I just stayed silence because I wasn't strong enough to fight.

I looked at this experiment, and I can see how people shallow doctrine hook, line, and sinker. IE: If I don't do this in a certain way the 'authorities' in my life will show me I don't have enough faith, and I'm following the dreaded feminist thinking.

I think cults use this. I think comps are good at it also. I mean look at the stereotypes of 'rebellious' women, and how many parrot this THINKING as good and right? If you can't accept it like they can, and try to think outside the box? They are down right vicious to you!

If you look at that part? I'm one of those that refused to continue with the experiment. For me its easier to address those that have been brainwashed when I can show them HOW they were talked into that way of thinking in the first place. I will admit I was one that would have zapped others in the beginning, and that was out of fear.

They are encouraged NOT to question, and my point is...WHY NOT? There isn't anything wrong with it, and those that say there is? They have something to hide.

For far to long people told me I just didn't get it. WELL now I know why, and I'm okay with that. I still don't get it as they think I should, and if they can't figure out a way of explaining in a way to make sense? Their point can't be to strong. Their shamed based responses like, "I would be ashamed of that way of thinking" doesn't answer my questions or concerns. I always got defensive at that response when I received it. There was no grace forwarded to me, and no attempt to discern an approach that would make me feel comfortable. To them? I was the sinful oddball.

Jesus loved those that colored outside the lines, and he fellow shipped and dined with them as the Pharisees had a hissie outside the door. Jesus welcomes the questions, and the others despise you for them. Jesus knows my heart, and others just label me.

This technique people use to keep you inside the box. WELL at least it gives you insight into how they can anyway.

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