Showing posts with label Saddleback. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Saddleback. Show all posts

Tuesday, March 08, 2011

Sabbath Was Made for Man

6 comments Posted by Hannah at 7:00 AM

Sabbath was made for Man
When I spoke about Mark 2.  Christ’s application of the Sabbath laws are very interesting. Technically…He broke the standards of the Sabbath Law as they were understood by the Legalists. To the accusations against Him Jesus said,

Mark 2:27
{2:27} And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath


I was reading a story from a man that was speaking about how the church teaches the laws of marriage and divorce - than of course remarriage.


To me this story made sense of how ridiculous we can get when  we are to rigid with no mercy. 

It can be said that man wasn’t made for the Law, but the Law made for man. Divorce is a stipulation of the Law. So too, like the Sabbath regulations, man wasn’t made to abide by divorce Law, but divorce Law was made for man.

How does this work? By principle. Divorce laws provided equity and justice in the dissolution of marriages. The writing of divorcement protected women from abuse and exploitation. In the New Covenant we are not bound by the Law. However, the principles of God’s Law are still very much alive. If a woman or her children are being abused physically, emotionally, or psychologically we should consider the Law’s purpose…the protection of women. The door swings both ways…sometimes it’s the protection of men.

Let’s say a woman or her children are being abused by her husband but he hasn’t committed adultery (or at least there isn’t any evidence for adultery). Under the traditional interpretation of biblical divorce laws this woman is forced to stay with this abuser…if she divorces him she is expected to live a single life with her children. If she remarries the church is forced to classify HER as an adulteress and dis-fellowship her. Should she seek a divorce and desire to remarry a godly man not only has she been abused by her ex-husband, but now she’s spiritually abused by the church…when she’s done nothing wrong. One thing I’ve noticed…the Legalist’s interpretation puts the victim in bondage and empowers the abuser. For example…
When we look at this man's comment about how Divorce Law was made for man - you have to stop and realize due to our sin this law was needed.  We speak of the world and how they try to find loop holes in things, and yet when Christians do not side with mercy, compassion, grace, etc but use the law ARE we NOT doing the same THING?

The Sabbath's intent was to be of service to the man, and not man created for the purpose of keeping the sabbath, no matter what. The sabbath is to serve the man, not man supposed to serve the sabbath.

Are we to follow the law in extreme fashions that we do empower abusers, and leave victims in bondage?  It seems we can't LOOK at circumstances, and use the discernment skills that the Lord has given us.  We ask ourselves is separating this couple biblical?  When we clearly see people being harmed why is it we struggle with what we know is right?

Why we question what is moral and ethical shows how we place the law before mercy - and in this case humans.  The law served no one - not the family nor the abuser.

We use the law to say things are 'biblical', and yet use no common sense or compassion towards them.  If that were correct way Jesus would be scolding those eating on the Sabbath, and not telling the extremists to basically GET WITH IT and GET REAL!

The strangest part to me?  Christians sit and struggle with the above story.   Do remember a while ago that Saddleback church got themselves into hot water, because of comments about this 'struggle'?
"I wish there were a third [reason for divorce] in Scripture, having been involved as a pastor with situations of abuse," Holladay said. "There is something in me that wishes there were a Bible verse that says, 'If they abuse you in this-and-such kind of way, then you have a right to leave them.'"
Do you know WHY these people struggle?  They place the law above all else.  They don't feel the freedom like Jesus did when he told his followers to eat the grain on the Sabbath, and how they were NOT doing anything wrong!

When men can't see what Jesus pointed out in this story?  They are not the leaders that they claim to be.  When people STRUGGLE with the thought having to leave families 'as is', because they realize the abuse that is happening...then side on 'law' instead of common sense and mercy?  They are going the same thing the Pharisees did in the story. 

It reminds me of the story in the bible about the master and his servants, and how he left on trip giving three of them 'talents' to work with in his absence.  The story is in Matthew 25:14-30.  As a small child this story kind of scared me, because at times I would do what was 'safe'.  I was so afraid of failing, and being reamed for this - and that I could picture myself placing those talents in the ground myself.  I would watch the others make a profit, but would be to scared to take that risk myself.

As I grew into maturity I realized there are times in which you must take a risk for the betterment.  We all must use discernment in circumstances, because one size doesn't always fit all.  Mr. Holladay like many others bury their talents in the ground, because its the 'safe' thing to do as they see it.  They 'wish' there was some form of rescue or mercy for abused parties.  WHY they feel that leaving victims in abusive circumstances would be 'biblical' is mind blowing.

You might think that fear and suspicion will keep you out of trouble, but really they’ll just cause you suffering and pain.  It this case?  For everyone involved.  You don’t need fear to avoid being a gullible idiot; for that you just need common sense.  To live a life of abundance, you must ultimately move beyond fear and work to create abundance for others.  Otherwise you’ll ultimately be cast out as worthless.

Mark 2:27
{2:27} And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

Thursday, July 16, 2009

Saddleback's Tom Holladay Back pedal about domestic violence

4 comments Posted by Hannah at 10:38 AM

Saddleback removes audio clip saying abuse no excuse for divorce , but it took them HOW LONG to come up with an excuse as to WHY?

I guess Saddleback didn't have their damage control together fast enough when they decided they made silly and dangerous remarks about domestic violence. They decided months later to let the world know about their error at abpnews.com, but NOT leave any explanation or explain themselves at the time. Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense.

"I wish there were a third [reason for divorce] in Scripture, having been involved as a pastor with situations of abuse," Holladay said. "There is something in me that wishes there were a Bible verse that says, 'If they abuse you in this-and-such kind of way, then you have a right to leave them.'"


He let the Baptist news outlet know his statement had to do with other forms of domestic violence, and you seem to have the right to leave ONLY if physical abuse is present now. It took how many months to come up with this? It seems to me if that was the case he would have corrected that error on the website with explanation. Where is the excuse about making sure you are 'beat regular', and how that was a prefectly acceptable comment as well? How will he explain that one away? lol wrong section for that as well?

Come on Mr. Holladay you can do better than that! It takes you months to come up with what you have so far, and ONLY after it set the world on fire on how insane the comments were?

What the clip didn't make clear, Holladay said recently, is the question he was answering had to do with abusive language and not physical abuse. The way it was edited, Holladay said, gave the impression that a chronically violent and abusive situation is the only just cause for separation.

"We believe that one violent incident is obviously more than enough to demand the need for a separation," Holladay said in a statement to church members. "This has always been the advice that we give."

Holladay said "in an attempt to explain the difference between an angry exchange between spouses and domestic violence, I used words that seemed -- especially when taken out of context -- that I believe a long term multiply violent situation is the only cause for a separation."

"That is not what I and we believe or advise," he said. "Instead, we advise that in a domestic violence situation the first step is to get immediately to safety. I apologize for a poor choice of words that made it seem in any way that we do not advise this."

Holladay said Saddleback believes that God can restore a marriage in which abuse has occurred, but if an abusive spouse refuses to repent and try to change, there eventually comes a point at which he or she has abandoned the marriage and it cannot be saved.


So now he is speaking about 'abusive languange' only. Then downplays that to an 'angry exchange'. What is that? A little spat now?

"I wish there were a third [reason for divorce] in Scripture, having been involved as a pastor with situations of abuse," Holladay said.

Its not abuse remember? Its abusive languange and an 'angry exchange'.

"There is something in me that wishes there were a Bible verse that says, 'If they abuse you in this-and-such kind of way, then you have a right to leave them.'"

RIGHT! So threats, ridicule, mocking, and breaking one's spirit you WISH the bible addressed, and so Saddleback could advise you had the right to some sense of safety. NOW the home that is to be a sense of peace can't be because there isn't any scripture mentioning things that would go against that. They can't do anything about that. Remember its just an 'angry exchange'. RIGHTTTTT!

How about Mr. Holladay release the entire session - uncut - since it was edited uncorrectly to show this fab new advice? Could it be that wouldn't be so fab at that point either? We just remove it, and wait MONTHS to comment as to WHY we removed it...and only address one PORTION of what people felt was wrong with your statements?

What about the statements about being beat on a regular basis? Was that an audio error as well?

And when I say physical abuse, I mean literally when someone is beating you regularly. I don’t mean they grabbed you once. I mean they’ve made a habit of beating you regularly. You need to separate from that situation. That’s the only thing that’s going to solve that. It’s the only possibility of solving it.


NO if he beat you ONCE you DON'T need to separate!

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