Saddleback says you CAN'T ESCAPE THE PAIN!!

Saddleback Church - Does the bible say it is alright to divorce a spouse that is abusing you? Question 32. Danni at Because it matters beat me to the transcript as I was doing the same thing. lol She is faster than I am! Anyway, here is what was said:

Someone asked this out of their heart though, “Does the Bible say it is alright to divorce a spouse who is abusing you. I think that’s an excellent question of Scripture.

It’s not like you can escape the pain. You think you are. There’s an immediate release when you divorce and you think I’ve escaped the pain but anyone in this room who has been divorced you could come up here and give testimony after testimony after testimony after testimony to say that, no, you don’t escape the pain.

There’s still a pain there. It’s a long-term pain. It may come years later when a son or daughter graduates from high school and they have to get back together somehow and make that thing work. It may come years later as you talk with a new spouse and an issue comes up that had come up in a previous marriage. You don’t escape the pain.

And I’d always rather choose a short-term pain and find God’s solution for a long-term gain than try and find a short-term solution that’s going to involve a long-term pain in life. And I take that to mean, and there are some Christians who disagree about this. But I believe that to mean that if someone abandons you that you are free to remarry.

Now the question is, why doesn’t it say anything about a Christian leaving a Christian? The Bible doesn’t say anything about that because it doesn’t speak as if that would ever happen. It can imagine an unbeliever leaving because an unbeliever isn’t going to follow… if an unbeliever leaves you and says, “hey, you have to stay married to me for the rest of your life. I’m going to go live with this other person, but tough. Or I’m just going to go out and do my own thing and whether it’s 20 or 30 or 50 years and you can’t remarry” — that doesn’t seem right, does it? It isn’t even Scriptural. The Bible talks about that.

So adultery is one, and abandonment is a second. I wish there were a third in the Scripture. Having been involved as a pastor in situations of abuse there’s something in me that wishes there was a Bible verse that says if they abuse you in this and such kind of way then you can leave them.

I want to tell you, the advice that we give, in our counseling ministries, first of all, if you’re in these kinds of situations, I strongly recommend that you take advantage of our lay counseling ministries. Go in and talk to someone and let them minister to you.

The advice that we give is not divorce but separation. You should not put up with the abuse. There is nowhere in the Bible that says you should put up with abuse. There is nowhere in the Bible that says it is an attitude of submission to let somebody abuse you. That is not submission.

And so we recommend very strongly, separation. Why do we? It’s the only way to healing, because there’s an abusive cycle that’s been set up. Separation combined with counseling has proven to provide healing in people’s lives.

Now whenever I talk about divorce, I talk about it with a great heart for what many of you have been through. Because I realized many of you look back on your lives, some of you were divorced before you were a believer in Christ. Does God hold you accountable for that like He would hold a believer accountable for that? No, of course not. You didn’t know. He doesn’t hold us accountable for what we don’t know.

So what if you were divorced after you were a believer? And as you look back on it now you’d say “I told myself it was for a right reason but I realize it was more my selfishness than anything else.” You have the maturity to admit that. I would remind you that although divorce is a sin, God forgives sin. There’s lots of sins out there. I gotta tell you, without God’s forgiveness in my life, not just before I became a Christian, but after I became a believer, I’d never make it into heaven, would you?

I say that, not to excuse divorce, because God hates divorce. But just to let you know the heart of God about this.

It seems Saddleback's Teaching Pastor Tom Holladay is the person actually stating the comments, but he is speaking for the whole church's position to me since they placed it on their website.

It seems to me that unless you have been directly impacted in some fashion regarding domestic abuse within the home that you may not be looking for scripture passages.

It’s not like you can escape the pain. You think you are. There’s an immediate release when you divorce and you think I’ve escaped the pain but anyone in this room who has been divorced you could come up here and give testimony after testimony after testimony after testimony to say that, no, you don’t escape the pain.

This quote really bothered me. They aren't separating and/or divorcing to 'escape the pain' as he puts it, but for safety and welling being. To stop the children from witnessing their parent being abused. To make sure their children KNOW that this behavior is unacceptable, and don't wish them to think its normal. They escape the abuse for all kinds of reasons, and most know that not all the pain is going to go away.

Are all those 'testimony after testimony' people ones that wanted to escape the abuse? I doubt it. I'm sure there are awful stories in other situations, but quit minimizing domestic violence! This man is speaking from ignorance of the damaging effects of domestic abuse, and YES some pain you do escape when you separate and divorce. I mean DUHHHHHhh here!

There’s still a pain there. It’s a long-term pain. It may come years later when a son or daughter graduates from high school and they have to get back together somehow and make that thing work. It may come years later as you talk with a new spouse and an issue comes up that had come up in a previous marriage. You don’t escape the pain.

Sigh. There is a long term pain in dealing with what happened to you. There is guilt, shame, remorse, mourning among others. There are habit patterns that you have that you realize you need to change in order to NOT fall into this trap again. I'm not talking remarriage here. I'm referring to all kinds of relationships.

You have to accept at times that your spouse refuses to look to themselves, and will continue to blame you for the rest of their days. You have to deal with the things they say to your children during visitation. You have to deal with those that Saddleback Church that tell you, "You can't escape the pain!" So we can't escape the pain within the relationship or out of it I guess. It doesn't matter if there is a HUGE difference between the two right? Having to live with it full time, and having no place to escape to compared to your own place with some sense of peace and safety isn't a reasonable expectation. Nope. Remember you son or daugther will graduate from high school one day, and you have to COME together for that! I have wonder if he realizes how completely insane that sounds???

And I’d always rather choose a short-term pain and find God’s solution for a long-term gain than try and find a short-term solution that’s going to involve a long-term pain in life. And I take that to mean, and there are some Christians who disagree about this. But I believe that to mean that if someone abandons you that you are free to remarry.

Now the question is, why doesn’t it say anything about a Christian leaving a Christian? The Bible doesn’t say anything about that because it doesn’t speak as if that would ever happen. It can imagine an unbeliever leaving because an unbeliever isn’t going to follow… if an unbeliever leaves you and says, “hey, you have to stay married to me for the rest of your life. I’m going to go live with this other person, but tough. Or I’m just going to go out and do my own thing and whether it’s 20 or 30 or 50 years and you can’t remarry” — that doesn’t seem right, does it? It isn’t even Scriptural. The Bible talks about that.

I'm sorry but this statement makes no sense when it comes to the subject matter. What has this got to do with someone abusing you within a marriage? The author stated pretty clear so far that he has no clue about dynamics within marriage in the realms of abuse. If I were guessing they feel abuse is an 'anger issue'. How much you want to bet? Separate and let us place your spouse into our 'anger' ministry. Abuse isn't about anger. They missed the boat once again.

So adultery is one, and abandonment is a second. I wish there were a third in the Scripture. Having been involved as a pastor in situations of abuse there’s something in me that wishes there was a Bible verse that says if they abuse you in this and such kind of way then you can leave them.

I want to tell you, the advice that we give, in our counseling ministries, first of all, if you’re in these kinds of situations, I strongly recommend that you take advantage of our lay counseling ministries. Go in and talk to someone and let them minister to you.

The advice that we give is not divorce but separation. You should not put up with the abuse. There is nowhere in the Bible that says you should put up with abuse. There is nowhere in the Bible that says it is an attitude of submission to let somebody abuse you. That is not submission.

And so we recommend very strongly, separation. Why do we? It’s the only way to healing, because there’s an abusive cycle that’s been set up. Separation combined with counseling has proven to provide healing in people’s lives.

They bible does speak about helping those oppressed, abused, in bondage, etc correct? If the party that is doing those things refuses to stop or even acknowledge the damage do we just STOP helping victims? Do we NOT get them away from that? Is domestic abuse NOT bondage or oppression?

Again I have no issue with separation, but that is also very simplistic comment when you see that what abusers are after is control. They are going to LOVE a church that tells their spouse, 'you can't escape the pain!" You don't press charges - you place them into their counseling ministry! I have no issue with stating that counseling can bring you healing, but his statements show very clearly you need to be VERY careful with WHOM you get counseling FROM! I mean if the biggest issue is down the road dealing with that spouse for a graduation to show you that you can't escape the pain? GAG! Sorry!

I don't know about you, but their counseling ministry may be one of the last places I would go to for help. Maybe they need to attend some of their 'Celebrate Recovery' classes so they can be educated about abuse. I have attended some that aren't associated with their church, but other organizations run them. They seem to recognize the 'long term pain' no matter what avenue you decide to go. I don't have a problem with separation at all. What they fail to realize is that most abusers aren't going to truly face their issues unless they are either forced or surprisingly are willing to. Sadly, most refuse to when faced with anything. That is the saddest part of all at times I think. Saddleback seems to think that addressing that wouldn't be an option because, 'doesn’t say anything about that because it doesn’t speak as if that would ever happen.' You see that is a very REAL possibility when dealing with this! YET never even hinted at!

Now whenever I talk about divorce, I talk about it with a great heart for what many of you have been through. Because I realized many of you look back on your lives, some of you were divorced before you were a believer in Christ. Does God hold you accountable for that like He would hold a believer accountable for that? No, of course not. You didn’t know. He doesn’t hold us accountable for what we don’t know.

So what if you were divorced after you were a believer? And as you look back on it now you’d say “I told myself it was for a right reason but I realize it was more my selfishness than anything else.” You have the maturity to admit that. I would remind you that although divorce is a sin, God forgives sin. There’s lots of sins out there. I gotta tell you, without God’s forgiveness in my life, not just before I became a Christian, but after I became a believer, I’d never make it into heaven, would you?

I say that, not to excuse divorce, because God hates divorce. But just to let you know the heart of God about this.

So if you choose divorce - because that is all that available in your state - to AHEM escape the pain you will need to admit somewhere down the pike it was due to selfishness.

People seem to realize in most cases abusers aren't going to leave. You know why? Its there house, etc. See the power and control there? Saddleback would have open arms if they went against one of their main characteristics? In most cases the victim is the one that needs to flee, because abusers aren't going anywhere.

Mr. Holloday they 'may not escape the pain' in some ways, but they escaping the abuser! You know the one that oppressed them, and placed them under bondage?! You can't escape the pain, but you can escape the abuse. Talk about irresponsible babble. They should be ashamed of themselves.

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